New Regulations on Table Saws Coming?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • twistsol
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 2884
    • Cottage Grove, MN, USA.
    • Ridgid R4512, 2x ShopSmith Mark V 520, 1951 Shopsmith 10ER

    New Regulations on Table Saws Coming?

    The Consumer Products Safety Commission has issued a proposed rule requiring the addition of anti-injury mechanisms to new tablesaws sold in the US.

    CPSC Proposed Rule Comment Period

    This has happened a few times since 2003 but their seems to be a belief on some of the other woodworking boards that this time they may actually move forward with a rule.
    Chr's
    __________
    An ethical man knows the right thing to do.
    A moral man does it.
  • leehljp
    Just me
    • Dec 2002
    • 8419
    • Tunica, MS
    • BT3000/3100

    #2
    I used to be against this, but am slowly changing my mind in favor of the safety equipment.

    I do think the move in this direction will also result in more lawsuits - even idiot proof technology can be overridden by super idiots. Plus dropping the saw, banging it around in the back of the pickup - can it (safety mechanical/electrical) be damaged enough to make it not work while the saw blade will? More law suits?
    Hank Lee

    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

    Comment

    • capncarl
      Veteran Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 3557
      • Leesburg Georgia USA
      • SawStop CTS

      #3
      As the safety bar get pushed higher, legal suits will swoop in and do what ambulance chasers do. Maybe the legal suits are the reasons that saw manufacturers do not improve safety, they don’t want to stir up anything?

      Comment


      • twistsol
        twistsol commented
        Editing a comment
        Making it safer is admitting it wasn't safe previously. We live in a screwed up world.
    • LCHIEN
      Internet Fact Checker
      • Dec 2002
      • 20847
      • Katy, TX, USA.
      • BT3000 vintage 1999

      #4
      The inclusion of the Saw stop technology will kill the benchtop saw category.
      Right now there are bench top saws going from about $200 to 400 and with retail cost and royalties of saw stop features they'll be priced out of the low end woodworker market.
      Here are the cheapest Sawstop saws
      SawStop offers portable table saws that are as easily carried or wheeled around as they are to use. From the benchtop Compact Table Saw (CTS) to the worksite-worthy Jobsite Saw Pro (JSS), these smaller table saws pack plenty of power and rip capacity into their small sizes. And both feature SawStop’s revolutionary finger-saving technology to keep you safe.

      Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	179.8 KB ID:	857875
      Last edited by LCHIEN; 02-04-2024, 11:47 PM.
      Loring in Katy, TX USA
      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

      Comment

      • capncarl
        Veteran Member
        • Jan 2007
        • 3557
        • Leesburg Georgia USA
        • SawStop CTS

        #5
        Somewhere I saw mentioned that saws damaged by dropping or moving around in a truck or van affected their functionality/safety. While this might be true, it is a reflection on the tool owner that flings his table saw in the back of the van and wonders why it hit him in the back of his head when he slams on brakes. It’s the same people that transports a refrigerator standing up in the back of a truck or in a trailer without adequate straps. ( adequate straps doesn’t mean a piece of the orange cord he picked up at the contractors entrance and looped it around the refrigerator and loops it around the trailer ball).

        Comment

        • nicer20
          Established Member
          • Sep 2007
          • 365
          • Dublin, CA
          • BT3100

          #6
          AFAIK, only Sawstop has the patent on the safety mechanism. So wouldn't forcing everyone to have similar system mean they will be forced to pay royalties to Sawstop? How can the government enforce such a rule? Or would that mean the Sawstop technology will be made available and open to everyone in the name of safety?

          Comment

          • LCHIEN
            Internet Fact Checker
            • Dec 2002
            • 20847
            • Katy, TX, USA.
            • BT3000 vintage 1999

            #7
            Originally posted by nicer20
            AFAIK, only Sawstop has the patent on the safety mechanism. So wouldn't forcing everyone to have similar system mean they will be forced to pay royalties to Sawstop? How can the government enforce such a rule? Or would that mean the Sawstop technology will be made available and open to everyone in the name of safety?
            Requiring a closely worded safety mechanism akin to patented Saw stop technolgy basically requires saw makers to license it or develop an non-infringing technique to accomplish the same thing. Inventor Gass was a patent attorney and he wrapped up the patent pretty well and was campaining for language in CPC regulations that left little alternative to using his product or one very similar.

            This was a spirited topic some time back on theses forums.
            The man behind the Sawstop technology and patent is a lawyer named Steve Gass. The patents issued in 1999-2000, he started Sawstop and a very aggressive campaign with congress and the CPC to make saws have protection which for some reason very closely resembled what the patents covered. He had rather high license fees and costs for the mechanism. It went over badly, people thought he was trying to corner the market on a legally required expensive technology on which he benefitted if you wanted to buy a table saw.
            He sponsored some rather well publicized lawsuits against ryobi for a laborer who got injured using a saw with the guards removed.
            Interestingly the patents are set to expire soon.​

            Click image for larger version

Name:	image.png
Views:	181
Size:	53.9 KB
ID:	857890
            ​​​​​​​
            Loring in Katy, TX USA
            If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
            BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

            Comment

            • twistsol
              Veteran Member
              • Dec 2002
              • 2884
              • Cottage Grove, MN, USA.
              • Ridgid R4512, 2x ShopSmith Mark V 520, 1951 Shopsmith 10ER

              #8
              Many of the original patents have expired now or are expiring soon. As of 2019 Sawstop said they would look at their patents and what a licensing package would look like when the CPC actually passes a rule. Apparently they've gone through this exercise a number of times over the years with nothing to show for it. When the CPC asked them again for the information in 2019, they basically said we're not wasting our time again, and don't believe you'll do anything anyway. The response to CPC was pretty terse.

              Chr's
              __________
              An ethical man knows the right thing to do.
              A moral man does it.

              Comment

              • Black walnut
                Administrator
                • Aug 2015
                • 5432
                • BT3K

                #9
                I am opposed to this. I think Gass is an ambulance chaser of an attorney, and is consumed by greed. HIs tactics when he first developed his technology rightfully alienated many. Our Forums own Lee Styron aka Stytooner, may he rest in peace, also came up with an improvement in tablesaw safety. The combination of a riving knife, big dog clamp and Shark Guard. Although he didn't give them away he did freely share plans for them and outright encouraged others to make their own. To me that is an honorable way to do business.

                I'm not a laywer nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night however there is a case in front of SCOTUS that might result in limiting what CPC can do as far as rule making. It might take a few leaps and some court cases but with litigation much can happen. It seems likely that SCOTUS will overturn the Cheveron Defference.

                If Sawstop was required when I started woodworking I never would have been able to buy a tablesaw, at least not when I did. When safety technology makes tool ownership so expensive it actually encourages unsafe innovations by hobbyists trying to do something. Think homemade table saw without a guard, just an inversely mounted circular saw. Maybe without even a fence.
                just another brick in the wall...

                Boycott McAfee. They placed an unresponsive popup on my pc.

                Comment

                • leehljp
                  Just me
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 8419
                  • Tunica, MS
                  • BT3000/3100

                  #10
                  Originally posted by nicer20
                  AFAIK, only Sawstop has the patent on the safety mechanism. So wouldn't forcing everyone to have similar system mean they will be forced to pay royalties to Sawstop? How can the government enforce such a rule? Or would that mean the Sawstop technology will be made available and open to everyone in the name of safety?
                  In the electronics world, There is a phrase (and I forget the phrase) that goes along with this. With inventions, there are two basic ways invention licenses can be enforced -
                  1. a patent that protects the inventor and no one can use it without a direct agreement with the inventing party. And this is usually fairly expensive. Example of this is the Multi-tool was invented by FEIN. They did not allow anyone to use their technology and did not license it. Only When the patent protection was up (after 20 years???) did other companies begin to copy the basic design. (I bought a Fein during the period before their patient protection period. Love that tool!)
                  2. when a company invents something and the company wants it to become the defacto standard (and it is worthy of a standard,) then the government steps in and requires the inventor to offer the invention equally across the board at a greatly reduced licensing price to all manufacturers. In general it cannot charge different licensing agreements with different or competing companies.

                  An example of this is the battle a few years ago between Apple and whoever owned some of the inventions of the way phone communications work. They charged most companies one price but wanted to charge Apple a huge price because Apple was a larger company. News and many Apple haters blasted Apple for not wanting to pay royalties. Apple refused to pay because the company agreed with the international law to make it equally priced across the board in order for it to become a "standard".

                  IF something is going to become a "standard," the licensing agreement price must be equally applied across the board to whoever uses it, and at a LOWER price. The lower price is the cost of getting the government or international laws to allow this to become a defacto standard.

                  Hank Lee

                  Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                  Comment

                  • capncarl
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 3557
                    • Leesburg Georgia USA
                    • SawStop CTS

                    #11
                    I absolutely hate ambulance chasers! I don’t know how many times I have tried to shoot our TV when their sickening adds interrupt my show, but my wife talks me out of it, something about not doing much good shooting the tv.
                    I did purchase a SawStop about a year ago after deciding that the possibility of my fumbling around on my saw would cost me a couple of fingers. Not considering the pain and inconvenience of loosing some fingers, the medical cost would buy me a truck load of SawStop’s​​​​​’

                    Putting your faith in government to save you from SawStop’s patent is a useless folly! Does anyone remember reading about when our famous Wright Brothers patent on flying machines hampered the growth of airplanes and could have possibly lost us WW1? It took our Guvment a world war to do something!

                    That said, SawStop is a really nice saw, remember the old wise mens saying, Buy your last saw first.

                    Comment

                    • cwsmith
                      Veteran Member
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 2729
                      • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                      • BT3100-1

                      #12
                      At what point are we and the legal profession going to realize that the key to safety is education? You look around at the cutting tools in our world and realize that you had better have some knowledge of how they work, what the dangers are, and what safety precautions you have to take to be around them or use them?

                      If this particular clause is forced on the table saw industry, I expect that not only will the price go up, but that many models will not be adaptable, and overall, a table saw will not be affordable to many.

                      As I've mentioned in the past, I watched as my father lost two fingers to a table saw. Horrible sight and sound and for decades I wouldn't go near one. A few months after that accident I was scheduled for my highschool wood shop classes. The teacher recognized and understood my fear of the table saw and he introduced me to the Radial Arm Saw, as a "SAFE " alternative. Of course most of us know that today the RAS is reputed to be highly dangerous and because of that reputation you rarely find one on the market! Could that someday happen to tablesaws?

                      I've owned a RAS since 1974 and up until I purchased a BT3100 in 2005, I never went near a table saw. With the RAS, I've remodeled, built a huge deck, and done many other projects with cross-cutting, ripping (even large sheets of ply) as well as all kinds of cuts, rabbets, etc. Never once did I ever come close to having an accident, but the table saw is just so much better for ripping!

                      In my personal opinion, the key to safety is education and awareness. Surely, you can't follow everything you see a place like YouTube or, for that matter, read in a book. You have to be knowledgable to know when something is a dumb idea and risky. That said, I'm not for having certain things pushed on me either. Education and awareness are the key safety factors with any cutting tool, whether it be a power saw, a knife, or even a paper cutter. You look at the price of a Sawstop and it leaves me wondering how much legislation is being pushed by greed. I personally dislike when it takes an army of legal firms to force safety upon us. It takes us away from the personal responsibility to be aware and to be knowledgable about the tools and processes that we to learn to better our craft skills and lower our risks

                      CWS
                      Think it Through Before You Do!

                      Comment


                      • capncarl
                        capncarl commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I agree with your post, but,
                        When you mentioned safety education, does that mean that in order to purchase a dangerous tool you have to show proof of education? Since we have few wood shop / industrial arts classes offered in our junior and high schools where will the safety education come from?
                        Sometimes requiring approved education does work. IE, required training before being issued a concealed weapons permit in some states.
                        I do not want a bunch of lawyers causing me to have to deal with new “safe” tools. I can not imagine the implications of what government regulations would do to the power tool industry.

                      • cwsmith
                        cwsmith commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Capncarl,

                        No, I didn't mean that at all!

                        What I meant was that instead of just being the macho male who thinks they can do anything by just purchasing a tool, they need to use their brains, read the manual, maybe a handy-man tool book, talk to some friends, and YES if they have the opportunity take a class or at least have someone knowledgeable tell them of the advantages and disadvantages, as well as the "what if's" of a tool operation, so they can be aware.

                        Looking back at my father's accident, which is still quite clear more than sixty-five years after the fact, I can see he didn't really know how to use that table saw. He wasn't aware of the missing guards, or the 'don't do that' fundamental safety precautions; he was tired, working late and rushing to complete that evening.... ALL "don't do that' rules!

                        I've spent a lifetime writing and illustrating instruction manuals, and contrary to my employer's thoughts at times, I don't write for the manufacturer, I write for the guy who's going to use the equipment (believe me, that can be a conflict at times).

                        The point is, you can can only fool-proof a tool so much, and you can too often go too far, making the customer think that he is always going to be perfectly safe, to the point, where it might be considered that any fool can do the job. "Education" means educating yourself, fully and whether thats discussion, reading, classes, or just having good friends pointing the way (like here on this forum), whatever! It prevents broken stuff and unnecessary bleeding!

                        CWS
                        Last edited by cwsmith; 02-11-2024, 01:39 PM.

                      • capncarl
                        capncarl commented
                        Editing a comment
                        There are a lot of people that use very dangerous power tools with no, none, zilch safety training. I guess they are the reason the emergency rooms are always full.
                        This past week as my wife and I were exercising, taking our stroll through our neighborhood, I saw a 30 ish year old routing a pile of 6” long pieces. He was sitting on a large plastic toolbox holding a small bare router motor with no plate, handles or anything in one hand and holding the wood piece in his other hand in his lap. He was stroking the wood with the router like you would sharpen a lawn mower blade with a file. The router blade hadn’t been sharp for a long time as it was just screaming! I got a quick look at what he was doing and told the wife to let’s get our of here before he slings blood on us. She understood, He was trying real hard to make sure he never again had any children. I didn’t hear any ambulance sirens so I guess he finished his project or broke his router.
                    • dbhost
                      Slow and steady
                      • Apr 2008
                      • 9180
                      • League City, Texas
                      • Ryobi BT3100

                      #13
                      I have said it before and I will gladly say it again. I love the SawStop technology, I love the quality of their branded saws, I DESPISE the fact that Steve Gass is trying to mandate licensing and inclusion of his proprietary technology using force of legal regulation. I want a SawStop. I can afford a SawStop, it would take some stretching but I can do it. I do NOT want to support a company that abuses our legal, patent and copyright framework to the detriment of everyone else. He could have granted license for free and bragged up his saws safety as being the first / safest etc... like Volvo did with the invention of the 3 point seatbelt.
                      Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

                      Comment

                      Working...