Is today's wood softer than 40 years ago?

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  • LCHIEN
    Internet Fact Checker
    • Dec 2002
    • 20914
    • Katy, TX, USA.
    • BT3000 vintage 1999

    Is today's wood softer than 40 years ago?

    This article is from a discussion on Quora. https://www.quora.com/Is-todays-wood...n-Whitehead-18

    I don't know as that is a general statement that can be made. Whether it is softer or not I don't know, but construction Lumber certainly isn't as strong as in the past. Most of that has to do with sustainable practices in the lumber industry. Spruce, Pine, Fir (often listed as SPF in lumber yards) is what is generally used for construction. The stuff is grown fast and cut early.

    Below is a picture of two pieces of two by four. The top one is a piece of original stud that I took out of my 1905 Farmhouse when I was doing some remodeling. The bottom one is a piece that I purchased at Home Depot. The difference in growth rings is amazing. That's what makes the difference.


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    Loring in Katy, TX USA
    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions
  • Jim Frye
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2002
    • 1051
    • Maumee, OH, USA.
    • Ryobi BT3000 & BT3100

    #2
    Yes, I think current construction wood is grown for fast maturity and is certainly different than old growth stuff from the 20th century. Some hardwoods I've seen at the big box stores are certainly different than the same species I buy at the local hardwood/millwork dealer. Last year, a builder built a two story home down down street from me and it was all framed (rafters and joists too) with finger jointed 2 by lumber. The finger jointed pieces were all about 2 feet long or less. I couldn't believe that the studs supporting the many large gluelam beams were also finger jointed lumber. I'm sure the present owners will be long gone before any of the hundreds and hundreds of finger joints in the home fail, but I still found it disconcerting.
    Jim Frye
    The Nut in the Cellar.
    ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

    Comment

    • Slik Geek
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2006
      • 669
      • Lake County, Illinois
      • Ryobi BT-3000

      #3
      It seems strange that the structural members are constructed of such short pieces! I have a slightly different concern. What happens in case of a fire. It is counterintuitive to a lot of people, but wood actually holds up longer in a fire than metal framing. I wonder if those glue laminated structural members would fail much earlier than continuous wood beams in the case of a fire. (Speculating, I don't know).

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      • Slik Geek
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2006
        • 669
        • Lake County, Illinois
        • Ryobi BT-3000

        #4
        I'm surprised that the original stud from the 1905 house isn't larger dimensions. That is what I found during remodeling of a 1950s house I used to own. A 2x4 used to be much closer to 2" x 4" than today. Puzzling that the old lumber isn't larger.

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        • cwsmith
          Veteran Member
          • Dec 2005
          • 2737
          • NY Southern Tier, USA.
          • BT3100-1

          #5
          My experience would agree with your findings. I live in an old 1887 house here in Binghamton, NY. The floor joists here on the first floor measure 7-1/2 x 1-3/4 and though I haven't had to cut into one, they are significantly hard to screw into and the grain pattern appears to be more elongated, but very tight. The main support horizontal support beam is two in two sections joining at a sharp overflap angle about 30° and measures 5-5/8 wide by 7-1/4 thick with a center support post that appears to be about 7-1/4 square (it's mostly hidden by a partition down the center or the basement.

          I've got a couple of old loose 2 x 4's out in the garage and I'll cut one to see the grain pattern. Not sure if the garage was built at the same time as the house, but by the looks of them, or years later, but they look quite old.

          When I rewired the second floor, it included a couple of first floor ceiling fixtures and I had to cut through a couple of sub-floor boards in the largest room. I did that just before we put in new hardwood flooring up there (it's now the library), I used my, new-at-the time, 18-V Ridgid circular saw with a brand new blade; it felt like I was cutting into something a lot harder than just wood. I did hit a nail on the last cut and lost a couple of teeth, but still that was a hard cut.

          Anyway, I'll post a picture of the cut I make of the old 2 x 4,

          CWS
          Think it Through Before You Do!

          Comment

          • leehljp
            Just me
            • Dec 2002
            • 8429
            • Tunica, MS
            • BT3000/3100

            #6
            Interesting that you bring this up. Growing up on a farm, I was more into helping my dad with mechanical things but delving into helping with wood on occasion. It was mostly oak, and pine as in the top board of Lorings picture. We had a large original growth walnut tree on our farm, but down in a "bottom" with access to plenty of water year round and even in hot summer months. There was a natural spring about 30 ft from the tree and I drank from it often. In the early-mid '60s, dad had it cut down and cut into lumber.

            On the old Ryobi forum or maybe on this one - back around 2003 or 2004, there was talk of hard, heavy and dense wood. I mentioned walnut. Everyone said walnut was not heavy, nor dense, nor strong as Oak. Even Hoadley's Book "Understading Wood" said the same thing. I was sure confused about walnut and figured I had walnut from one rare tree,

            Then about 3 months ago, my old long ago closed rural junior high/grammar school had a reunion. There was one guy there that I did not know. (actually there were several). This fellow had a had on a cap with the name of a logging company. I started talking with him about lumber and we got around to walnut. He said "I am very careful about the walnut I buy. I have to go to the mountains of TN to get the walnut I need, and even then I check it out before buying."
            I was VERY interested in this. He said that most hill and flat land walnut are in areas that don't get water except in rain times." He looks for walnut that is in "bottoms" and next to year-round water holes/streams. He said that kind of walnut is twice as dense, hard and strong.

            Finally, I found someone that knew about the kind of walnut that I was used to.

            When I got into pen turning, I discovered that light weight, porous walnut that others talked about, and Hoadley wrote about in his book.
            Last edited by leehljp; 12-07-2019, 08:33 PM.
            Hank Lee

            Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

            Comment

            • cwsmith
              Veteran Member
              • Dec 2005
              • 2737
              • NY Southern Tier, USA.
              • BT3100-1

              #7
              Here is a photo I just took of three pieces of pine, end cut 2 by 4's. Starting at the bottom is a piece purchased last year, the middle is about ten years old, and the top is a piece I took from my garage.

              The house was built in 1887, but of course I have no documentation about when the garage was built. I have guessing somewhere before 1920 by some of the old hardware, wiring, etc. All the studs are about this size and black to very dark brown in age. This particular piece appears to be cut from a wall opening when a previous owner added an room to the side of the garage somewhere in the 50's or 60's.

              To me, the growth rings are much tighter on the oldest top piece, and appear to be wider as the pieces are younger, but I am by no mean an expert on this.

              Click image for larger version

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              CWS
              Think it Through Before You Do!

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              • leehljp
                Just me
                • Dec 2002
                • 8429
                • Tunica, MS
                • BT3000/3100

                #8
                CWS,
                There are a few factors in the ring growth IN MY OPINION, that I rarely see factored into the fray. Usually, I see # 1 below used to determine WHEN a tree lived.
                1. I know that wood's generation (not age) can be determined, to some extent, by examining the rings that correspond to weather conditions - tight rings often mean dyer years; thicker rings correspond to more rain. By knowing this, we can determine WHEN certain woods lived.
                2. Different species of trees don't always do that.
                3. Natural forest's tree growth produces a different growth pattern than "pine forrest re-plants" that are for fast sustainable growth. When all pine trees start out at the same height, they compete for light on the same page, so to speak. But in natural forests, new starting out trees don't get the same light as older taller trees, and I would suspect this hampers tree fast growth and affects the rings.
                4. Then there is heart wood. Lots of trees have several inches and rings of soft wood before heart wood begins to form. Heartwood is closer/denser than the outer soft wood.
                Hank Lee

                Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                Comment

                • cwsmith
                  Veteran Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2737
                  • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                  • BT3100-1

                  #9
                  Thanks Hank,

                  I'm familiar with some of what you mentioned, probably from way back in some of my HS science classes and perhaps a bit of additional reading and discussion over the years. Besides the "where" of tree growth, much also depends on the "when" also, as elevation, water resources, climate , shade, and quality of sun light all effect growth and the tell-tale rings; even forest fires and disease have effect.

                  One of the things here in my region of NY (including the northern PA border area) is the particular forest areas that have existed. Here where I live, the forests are abundant, and even here in the west side of the city there are trees everywhere. On a short drive, everywhere there are hills covered in trees, mostly maple, oak, birch, and a variety of others hardwoods. While there are varieties of softer woods, they do not appear to be prevalent though.

                  I like history and several years ago I recall looking at some photographs of the area taken around the early 1900's. That was back when Binghamton, NY was one of the wealthiest cities in the country. The cities, towns, and villages here mostly rest in valley’s, along the rivers that cut through the rolling hills; and the one thing that caught my eyes in those turn-of-the-century photos was that the hills in every single photo were almost barren of the larger trees that are in existence today. It looked to me at the time like a huge forest fire had devastated the area at an earlier time, because almost every tree on those hills looked like thin saplings or were at least very sparsely populated.

                  Doing some research, I discovered that the rapid expansion of railroads in the mid to late 1800's was pretty consuming of most of the forests surrounding populated areas and along the lines of the railroad. Early on, the need for structures, railroad ties, bridges, rolling stock, etc.; and of course, to feed the steam engines which at that earlier time, relied on the burning of wood. To meet that demand, vast numbers of lumber workers spent their years cutting the forests to feed the railroad. Even in sparsely populated areas, the forests would be cut miles back from the rail lines. I imagine that there wasn't a whole lot of "conservation-thinking" back then. Hence, most of the forests around here are second and third growth.

                  As a teen, I spent as much of my time as possible roaming the hills and wooded areas and every now and then I’d run across a pretty big stump. Like four or more feet in diameter. We had one of those at the back edge of our lot which sat against the side of a wooded hill. Over the years, I found those “big stumps” to be fairly rare, as most mature trees averaged around two to three feet in diameter. That is pretty much the growth unless you get back into old virgin forest areas, well away from roads.

                  Immediately to the south of here is a place we refer to as "The French Track".... it was in the late 1800's and early 1900's heavily harvested for lumber and back when I was in my teens it was still laced with those logging trails. There the growth appears to be the younger trees that are less than a century old, and most of them are the smaller diameter.

                  From your experience, living in Japan, you might be familiar with the reconstruction of some of the temples there. I bought a book, “The Genius of Japanese Carpentry” by S. Azby Brown (ISBN 4-7700-1978-5). I have only read small parts of it, but I found it very interesting. Basically it surrounds the restoration of certain Buddhist Monasteries, know as the Yakushiji and discusses how the many aspects of the religion influenced the selection of trees and their application in the architecture and construction practices.

                  From the book, for example (last paragraph on page 27):

                  During the reconstruction of Horyuji, Nishioka (the renowned "Master Carpenter" the author worked with) discovered that the original builders had cut all of their hinoki from the hills in the Yamato area (the region surrounding Nara), and that their use of lumber–the matching of a tree’s natural qualities with its ultimate placement in a building—were in keeping with the oral precepts that had been handed down to him. “Different mountains make different wood” and “building is a matter of matching the individual personalities [in trees as well as carpenters].” Traditional wisdom provides innumerable guidelines for exploiting the unique characteristics of different trees, utilizing twist so that they counteract each other, making sure that trees which grew up on the southern face of the mountain are used in the southern side of the building”

                  A bit off the original discussion, but I thought this understanding of trees and wood was interesting, perhaps applicable, and maybe interesting to you.

                  CWS
                  Think it Through Before You Do!

                  Comment

                  • leehljp
                    Just me
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 8429
                    • Tunica, MS
                    • BT3000/3100

                    #10
                    Hey I lived in Nara for 14 years, and I heard many stories on construction as you mentioned.
                    Hank Lee

                    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                    Comment

                    • durango dude
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 934
                      • a thousand or so feet above insanity
                      • 50s vintage Craftsman Contractor Saw

                      #11


                      Comment


                      • cwsmith
                        cwsmith commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks for the article, I've downloaded it and will read it later today!
                    • leehljp
                      Just me
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 8429
                      • Tunica, MS
                      • BT3000/3100

                      #12
                      Originally posted by cwsmith
                      Thanks Hank,

                      From your experience, living in Japan, you might be familiar with the reconstruction of some of the temples there. I bought a book, “The Genius of Japanese Carpentry” by S. Azby Brown (ISBN 4-7700-1978-5). I have only read small parts of it, but I found it very interesting. Basically it surrounds the restoration of certain Buddhist Monasteries, know as the Yakushiji and discusses how the many aspects of the religion influenced the selection of trees and their application in the architecture and construction practices.

                      From the book, for example (last paragraph on page 27):

                      During the reconstruction of Horyuji, Nishioka (the renowned "Master Carpenter" the author worked with) discovered that the original builders had cut all of their hinoki from the hills in the Yamato area (the region surrounding Nara), and that their use of lumber–the matching of a tree’s natural qualities with its ultimate placement in a building—were in keeping with the oral precepts that had been handed down to him. “Different mountains make different wood” and “building is a matter of matching the individual personalities [in trees as well as carpenters].” Traditional wisdom provides innumerable guidelines for exploiting the unique characteristics of different trees, utilizing twist so that they counteract each other, making sure that trees which grew up on the southern face of the mountain are used in the southern side of the building”

                      A bit off the original discussion, but I thought this understanding of trees and wood was interesting, perhaps applicable, and maybe interesting to you.

                      CWS
                      I too, remember those large trees and tree stumps. When I was in my early teens I saw something that is with me to this day. We had a hog wire fence for hogs that surrounded numerous trees and was next to what we called "woods", or small original growth forrest. One day, behind the fence as I approached to put out some feed for a couple of hogs, there was a rabbit. Its ears were up to the top of the 3ft hog wire fence. I asked uncles and older people about that and they all replied, "Yes, we used to have large swamp rabbits years ago."
                      I remember seeing a huge turtle shell used as a sink for a pump handle water pump. And that turtle shell was not an import.

                      Thanks for the information and mentioning the Yamato area. On rare occasions, I heard the term "Yamato-go" used, which meant "heart language". Sometimes it was associated specifically with the dialect around Nara, but it also referred to "heart to heart" communication, also relating to "being an insider". I mention this because LOML and I were told discretely several times by different ones that we spoke "Yamato-go" (not the dialect). We did not fully understand this until a couple of missionaries (that were born in Japan and spoke pure Japanese dialects) - told us what it meant - we were considered "insiders", a very rare compliment. Behind Yamato-go is the meaning of "wa" or "heian" with the idea of "one with each other" or nature, or internal peace, which refers to the idea about the ways that they harvest particular trees for certain parts of the temple.

                      Hank Lee

                      Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

                      Comment

                      • cwsmith
                        Veteran Member
                        • Dec 2005
                        • 2737
                        • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                        • BT3100-1

                        #13
                        Thanks,

                        I don't know why, but I've always had an interest in Japan and to a slightly lesser degree, China. Something about the culture and the geography that I feel attracted to. I always thought that someday I might want to visit there, but I'm running out of time and my wife has never liked to travel. Regardless, I still find myself with an interest in Japan.

                        However, in my family any mention of that in my youth would have been strictly taboo, as I lost an Uncle on the Oklahoma, and even so much as buying a Japanese automobile would have been an insult. But history of course tells a different side of the story and so my mind doesn't particularly share those old points of view.

                        While I certainly have no deep understanding or experience with Japanese culture, there is in my mind a beauty there that is different than our western culture. Art, craftsmanship, even the practice of some simple things seem appreciated beyond what we, here, understand or can relate to in many cases. Nothing of course is perfect, and I don't idolize anything, but still there is a beauty to be understood. It must have been a great experience to have lived and worked there. Although I have a few work associates who visited there and about the only thing they came away with was that it was terribly expensive and that they were glad to be back home! My general feelings were, "Wow, you must have missed something!")

                        One acquaintance lived there two years (Executive with Corning, Inc.). His son was a good friend of our son. But in conversation about how the family liked it, (they didn't) I discovered that they lived in an American complex, ate in mostly American restaurants, and the son went to an American school. When asked about a few places I had read about, they hadn't visited anywhere, and they didn't travel the country at all. It left me with the thought, "What a waste!"

                        In any case, if you can find the book I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

                        (Note: In my last decade working for Dresser-Rand, I was given the task of coordinating the training of visiting engineers from several countries, none from Japan unfortunately. But I met some great people from Singapore, Malaysia, China, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. These men and women would come to Painted Post and stay for three to six months and I'd coordinate their engineering training, set them up with housing, phone, and act as a friend during their stay. It was a great experience and I still keep in contact with a few of them.)

                        CWS
                        Think it Through Before You Do!

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