Deck Project - Phase 3 (anchor board/joists)

**91FE** · 07-12-2006, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by PALefty

I could order stainless joist hanger nails from McFeeleys... but according to the Simpson literature, I need to use Stainless w/ Stainless and Galvanized w/ Gal. Makes sense. So.. it seems I will have to go with all galvanized unless I spring $$$ for the stainless hangers. Correct?

I've just wrapped up my 14 month deck project. A lot of research and design went into it (the architect in me). You're right, the SS stuff is crazy expensive. I didn't spring for it. I did a lot of reading on the new pressure treating techniques lumber mills are using. In a nutshell... the new eco-friendly chemical they're using eats metal... QUICK. It is suggested, by Simpson and others, not to install their galv hangers in direct contact with the joists. Instead, they recommend you put a rubber membrane between the two. I tried to upload a few PDF's I have, but the max upload size allowed is small...silly small. Shoot me an email and I'll send 'em to ya. seydor at gmail dot com (probably won't get them to you until tonight, or tomorrow AM)

Originally posted by PALefty

Does anybody nail their end joists to the anchor board before attaching the anchor board to the house? The way my deck is situated with a gutter on one side and a bordering neighbor's deck on the other.. it seems this would be the best way for me to do it. Is there a downside.. other than making it very heavy to lift?

No. End-nailing dimensional lumber is the weakest way. The nails will pull right out. If you've got a compressor, go get a cheap palm nailer ($20-30) and bang up the hangers... it's the easiest way.

HTH Scott

**PALefty** · 07-12-2006, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by 91FE

I've just wrapped up my 14 month deck project. A lot of research and design went into it (the architect in me). You're right, the SS stuff is crazy expensive. I didn't spring for it. I did a lot of reading on the new pressure treating techniques lumber mills are using. In a nutshell... the new eco-friendly chemical they're using eats metal... QUICK. It is suggested, by Simpson and others, not to install their galv hangers in direct contact with the joists. Instead, they recommend you put a rubber membrane between the two. I tried to upload a few PDF's I have, but the max upload size allowed is small...silly small. Shoot me an email and I'll send 'em to ya. seydor at gmail dot com (probably won't get them to you until tonight, or tomorrow AM)

No. End-nailing dimensional lumber is the weakest way. The nails will pull right out. If you've got a compressor, go get a cheap palm nailer ($20-30) and bang up the hangers... it's the easiest way.

HTH Scott

Interesting. I don't recall reading that on their site or in a Simpson booklet I have. Will rubber affect the strength of the hangers? Will the inspector give me a hard time? I have never seen this on display with all the Simpson stuff. Did you make your own?

So, even though you had the rubber.. you still used galvanized hanger nails... correct?

I am not end nailing all the joists.. I will be using joist hangers. What I was referring to, is on the two end joists, where you don't have a joist hanger, you have a 90 degree bracket on the inside. I was going to add a few nails on the outside to give it some additional support. According to the deck books I have looked at, this is a common thing. Though it is usually done after the anchor board is installed. I am wondering if I can attach the sides to the anchor board before I attach the anchor board to the wall.

**PALefty** · 07-12-2006, 02:23 PM

an interesting article: linky

**Hellrazor** · 07-12-2006, 03:07 PM

#$^#$&^ computer crashed last night when I had a 2 page reply to this .

Now you get the edited version:

1.Ok... go Galv, SS pricing is crazy. HA groups suck, I think they were nazis in their previous life. "We can't kill anyone anymore but we can sure piss them off."

2. I ignore the slope issue unless the deck is going to be huge. You didn't mention the size of the deck. Simpson are the 'standard' for hangers. Let me know which simpsons you get for the joists. There are 2 types, the nail holes that fasten into the joist are either 90degrees or 45 degrees. I think the ones with 45's onlt have 2 nails that go into the joist. You use all joist hanger nails on the 90 ones. On the ones with the 45's you use joist hanger nails into the ledger but use 8 or 10d galv screwnails into the joists since these actually will go back into the ledger too. I'll look later to see what the numbers are for each. I usually buy them by the case. You MUST use joist hanger nails with the simpsons or you will fail inspection. Using roofing nails because they are cheaper will cause you more work.

3. A nice way to straighten 5/4" deck boards is a piece of 2x4 and 2 double head nails. You nail the board to the top of a joist and use a 3' pry bar to presuade it to cooperate.

4. No, that would mean to try to get into place. What I do toenail it from the top and bottom, then use Simpson corner bracket on the inside and install another joist that is face nailed into the outside edge of the ledger board and sistered to the whole joist the full legth of the deck. You land up with a double outside joist which is nice and sturdy surely when fastening stringers for your steps. Only downside is the cost for 2 extra boards. Remember to install spacers in your joists to prevent them from warping. I always use up the scrap cuts from the joists to make a bunch of them. On a deck that has the joists running out from the house around 10', I use a 2-1-2-1-etc system for spacers. 2 in the first gap, 1 in the 2nd, 2 in the third and so on. On the 2's I use 3' and 7' on the 1's I use 5' for placements. Make sure you install these before you put the double joists on the end or you will be installing a joist hanger on the ends. I face nail these, no need for hangers. You need to modify this if you are running your boards in a different manner.

5. Use galv 1/2" lag screws and/or bolts. What is the exterior of the house before i recommend how to drill it.

Reminder, everything I am telling you is ok here. Your inspector could be a PITA for all I know.

**messmaker** · 07-12-2006, 04:01 PM

I think they are guessing on the life of the fasteners. They are not sure how long any of them will last due to the new process and may be guilty of overkill.

**91FE** · 07-12-2006, 06:39 PM

OK...here are links to the articles I was trying to attach originally:

http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulleti...TBARRIER05.pdf

http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/BarriersFAQs.html

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...c&id=41&did=26

I would have gone with SS, but I needed 60 some of them. As the receipts were piling up, I couldn't justify the additional cost of SS over z-max with a membrane.

I started with a roll of the Vycor stuff. It was tough to find, although I recently saw that my HD is stocking it. My second roll was from one of their competitors. Both worked fine and didn't add much effort. I'm glad I used it. My inspector was happy to see it, but I don't think he would have required it.

**PALefty** · 07-12-2006, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Hellrazor

#$^#$&^ computer crashed last night when I had a 2 page reply to this .

Now you get the edited version:

1.Ok... go Galv, SS pricing is crazy. HA groups suck, I think they were nazis in their previous life. "We can't kill anyone anymore but we can sure piss them off."

2. I ignore the slope issue unless the deck is going to be huge. You didn't mention the size of the deck. Simpson are the 'standard' for hangers. Let me know which simpsons you get for the joists. There are 2 types, the nail holes that fasten into the joist are either 90degrees or 45 degrees. I think the ones with 45's onlt have 2 nails that go into the joist. You use all joist hanger nails on the 90 ones. On the ones with the 45's you use joist hanger nails into the ledger but use 8 or 10d galv screwnails into the joists since these actually will go back into the ledger too. I'll look later to see what the numbers are for each. I usually buy them by the case. You MUST use joist hanger nails with the simpsons or you will fail inspection. Using roofing nails because they are cheaper will cause you more work.

3. A nice way to straighten 5/4" deck boards is a piece of 2x4 and 2 double head nails. You nail the board to the top of a joist and use a 3' pry bar to presuade it to cooperate.

4. No, that would mean to try to get into place. What I do toenail it from the top and bottom, then use Simpson corner bracket on the inside and install another joist that is face nailed into the outside edge of the ledger board and sistered to the whole joist the full legth of the deck. You land up with a double outside joist which is nice and sturdy surely when fastening stringers for your steps. Only downside is the cost for 2 extra boards. Remember to install spacers in your joists to prevent them from warping. I always use up the scrap cuts from the joists to make a bunch of them. On a deck that has the joists running out from the house around 10', I use a 2-1-2-1-etc system for spacers. 2 in the first gap, 1 in the 2nd, 2 in the third and so on. On the 2's I use 3' and 7' on the 1's I use 5' for placements. Make sure you install these before you put the double joists on the end or you will be installing a joist hanger on the ends. I face nail these, no need for hangers. You need to modify this if you are running your boards in a different manner.

5. Use galv 1/2" lag screws and/or bolts. What is the exterior of the house before i recommend how to drill it.

Reminder, everything I am telling you is ok here. Your inspector could be a PITA for all I know.

- that sucks (the crash) but thanks for taking the time to try again!

- yeah, I priced some online sources today.. and it was coming up 700-800's for stainless hangers etc. I don't plan on living here for that long. Yes, I can give some great HA stories. I technically don't have approval from them yet.. 3 months later!

- You don't do any slope? Isn't that something that can get the inspectors in a huff?

- I picked up the LUS for single joist (ZMAX). That is the one with the 2 45s. It is supposed to be stronger with less nails.. but the reason I got that one is that is all they had for 2x10s in HD. I could check Lowes if the other one is better..? I don't see any reference to the screw nails in their documentation? Edit- full model #LUS210Z

- I already ordered my wood... due here Fri. I have double joists on the side between me and my neighbors deck. It was needed to account for the 'common' handrail. On the other side, I only have one joist. Should I really reconsider and have two? I am not allowed to have any stairs.

- My deck is 14lx20w. I ordered 16s instead of 14s so I can have a little room for error etc. I also wanted to ensure I end on a full floor board (composite). I was planning to use the excess to do some of the bracing. My footers are out at 12'.. so I was planning on splitting the difference (6') and stagger them. I wasn't staggering them quite as much as you suggest.. but I can certainly entertain your idea. I also have to install some cross bracing underneath. Good catch on doing the bracing before the second joist.

- My specks call for 1/2". I am planning on using a combination of lag screws and bolts. Mainly because of the layout. In each space, I should have the bolt on top and the lag screw on bottom. There is one 'gotcha' that I have to deal with. That is... the old anchor board was 2x8 with aluminum siding above it and stucco below. My new anchor board is 2x10.. so it won't fit in the old space. I have to put an extra board in there to build out.. so the anchor board will be flush. So... what I will be drilling through is (2x10, extra board, 1/2" plywood, 2x12) which should come to around 5 inches. I am hoping I will not have to drill into the stucco. I don't know what is behind that.

**PALefty** · 07-12-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by 91FE

I started with a roll of the Vycor stuff. It was tough to find, although I recently saw that my HD is stocking it. My second roll was from one of their competitors. Both worked fine and didn't add much effort. I'm glad I used it. My inspector was happy to see it, but I don't think he would have required it.

I just used that stuff this evening as a barrier between the deck and my house. Lesson learned- do not unroll more than you can apply immediately. That stuff sticks to itself and is VERY difficult to undue. As I fought with the one end, the other end which was just barely started came down and made a bigger mess. I ended up throwing 5 ft or so away. I will have to think about using it. Did you use it under your posts also?

**91FE** · 07-12-2006, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by PALefty

...Did you use it under your posts also?

Yup. I used it between the ledger and house and at every galv/wood connection.

**PALefty** · 07-13-2006, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by 91FE

Yup. I used it between the ledger and house and at every galv/wood connection.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that they made some specifically marketed for decks (linky). I was using their 9" Flashing. Did you wrap your whole anchor board.. or did you cut out a small rectangle and put it just under the hangers? Since my deck is 8' in the air.. I will see anything that is there. Too bad they have their name plastered all over the place. It seems to be just rubber with an adhesive on one side. Do you think it is paintable?

**PALefty** · 07-13-2006, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by 91FE

OK...here are links to the articles I was trying to attach originally:

http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulleti...TBARRIER05.pdf

http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/BarriersFAQs.html

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...c&id=41&did=26

Very convincing articles. I wonder why they state over and over not to use the Grace/Vylor barrier w/ Stainless. Is it because they consider it overkill and don't want to badmouth their top of the line product.. or is there a chemical reaction that can occur between the Vylor and stainless?

**91FE** · 07-13-2006, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by PALefty

Interesting. I wasn't aware that they made some specifically marketed for decks (linky). I was using their 9" Flashing. Did you wrap your whole anchor board.. or did you cut out a small rectangle and put it just under the hangers? Since my deck is 8' in the air.. I will see anything that is there. Too bad they have their name plastered all over the place. It seems to be just rubber with an adhesive on one side. Do you think it is paintable?

I cut the membrane into 9"x4-5" rectangles and only stuck them under the hangers. My deck is elevated too... with a paver patio below. After reading Simpson's tech bulletin (and a few others that stated the new wood treatment could cause galvanized metal to corrode within MONTHS), I wasn't too concerned with the aesthetics of the installation. It is what it is... and I felt it was important enough to do. Sure, it would be nicer without all of Vycor printing on it... but what are you going to do. You could probably paint it, but you might end up with a solution just as ugly...not sure.

**PALefty** · 07-13-2006, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by 91FE

I cut the membrane into 9"x4-5" rectangles and only stuck them under the hangers. My deck is elevated too... with a paver patio below. After reading Simpson's tech bulletin (and a few others that stated the new wood treatment could cause galvanized metal to corrode within MONTHS), I wasn't too concerned with the aesthetics of the installation. It is what it is... and I felt it was important enough to do. Sure, it would be nicer without all of Vycor printing on it... but what are you going to do. You could probably paint it, but you might end up with a solution just as ugly...not sure.

I hear what you are saying.. and I agree. It was only $20 for a 33' role and $29 for a 50'. It certainly won't break the bank. I didn't notice the kind labeled 'decking' but I used the one labeled 'flashing'. I assume they are the same thing.. just different marketing/labeling. Is there any other difference that you are aware of?

**PALefty** · 07-13-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by PALefty

There is one 'gotcha' that I have to deal with. That is... the old anchor board was 2x8 with aluminum siding above it and stucco below. My new anchor board is 2x10.. so it won't fit in the old space. I have to put an extra board in there to build out.. so the anchor board will be flush with the stucco below.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this. I am unsure what size wood I should use here. It is an 8'' wide hole that I need to build out at least 1/2". Perhaps 3/4" would be better.. and if I had to go 1", then I have to. I would like to use pressure treated wood.. so that limits me. The closest I can think of.. is either pressure treated plywood.. or 2-1"x6" cut down to 1"x4" alternating joints.

Ideas?

Deck Project - Phase 3 (anchor board/joists)

Deck Project - Phase 3 (anchor board/joists)

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