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  • dbhost
    Slow and steady
    • Apr 2008
    • 9253
    • League City, Texas
    • Ryobi BT3100

    #46
    Originally posted by LCHIEN

    The quick-connects are called Fast-on tabs.

    Click image for larger version Name:	SA-037-RED-CRIMP-FAST-ON-TAB-TERMINAL-L-DSC08124-1.jpg Views:	0 Size:	14.5 KB ID:	846506
    Click image for larger version Name:	SA-047-YELLOW-CRIMP-FAST-ON-TERMINAL-DIMENSIONED-2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	17.4 KB ID:	846508
    they usually come in 0.250" and 0.170" wide blades. (male tab width)

    Which do you need and what sex and how many?

    I probably have some. and can drop them in the mail.

    PM me your address
    The HF bandsaw blades or fast on whatever you want to call them, are wider than .30. They are closer to .40 for some wierd reason. Not to worry though, I had a box of the .170 to match my blades so done deal...
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    Comment

    • LCHIEN
      Internet Fact Checker
      • Dec 2002
      • 21082
      • Katy, TX, USA.
      • BT3000 vintage 1999

      #47
      For Post #40 in this thread, I was expecting 4 items delivered on Monday per shipping tracking status on Monday morning. It is now Friday and here is the result:
      • 1 item (toaster) was UPS Surepost (which means its delivered to the local USPS for final delivery) UPS says it was refused by USPS and tracking shows it was returned and has been received by the sender now
      • Amazons shipment of Wifi plugs is lost in shipment according to Amazon They have no idea of where it is.
      • Received the item (flip stop) from MLCS
      • Google Nest Hub was received and found to be defective. Google confirmed and I returned the unit but Google has not yet shipped me the replacement after 4 days.
      Not a very good record.
      Last edited by LCHIEN; 12-03-2021, 02:00 PM.
      Loring in Katy, TX USA
      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

      Comment

      • dbhost
        Slow and steady
        • Apr 2008
        • 9253
        • League City, Texas
        • Ryobi BT3100

        #48
        Originally posted by LCHIEN
        For Post #40 in this thread, I was expecting 4 items delivered on Monday per shipping tracking status on Monday morning. It is now Friday and here is the result:
        • 1 item (toaster) was UPS Surepost (which means its delivered to the local USPS for final delivery) UPS says it was refused by USPS and tracking shows it was returned and has been received by the sender now
        • Amazons shipment of Wifi plugs is lost in shipment according to Amazon They have no idea of where it is.
        • Received the item (flip stop) from MLCS
        • Google Nest Hub was received and found to be defective. Google confirmed and I returned the unit but Google has not yet shipped me the replacement after 4 days.
        Not a very good record.
        With online order I can pretty much expect the following.

        Shipped with UPS? May or may not get the item. Odds are around 25% that the item will get lost somewhere between Houston and League City.
        Shipped with Fedex? It will show up 2 days after the actual scheduled delivery date, and God help me if it is raining because it WILL be left out where it can get the wettest...
        Shipped via USPS. It'll get here. When? It'll get here when it gets here. Tracking will show accepted by shipper until 2 days after I recieved the item.
        Shipped via Amazon. It'll get here, typically on time, by a harried delivery driver that God help them if Amazon management actually looks at Ring videos of their people... Typically if the package is small enough. it's hiding behind the flower pots on the front porch to hide it from potential porch pirates...
        Walmart? Do they drug test these people? That's all I need to say...


        I did something that will sound confusing at first but hear me out.

        I removed the Wen impeller from my HF DC and reinstalled the OEM impeller.

        You see I have questions about CFM, and I want to do a before and after comparison. So I needed to put the DC in a before status. And I needed a way to measure CFM.

        So an inexpensive anemometer is on its way. Should be here Sunday.

        I still haven't gone shopping, or to Home Depot yet. but I digress, back to the dust collector!

        So my idea here is to measure the wind speed in FPS, convert that to FPM, multiply that by the area of the 5" intake to get my CFM.

        Do this with the drum Thien in place, and then at the impeller itself being sure to not get the anemometer or my hand sucked in there as the cross was removed years ago after long stringy stuff got sucked in and blocked the intake before the thien was built... THEN swap the impeller, and test again, of course first with the port, then at the separator intake.

        THEN I can make the neutral vane, and measure at the port, make a thien baffle for the inlet ring, measure again. Compare, then decide what to do...

        I have a sneaking suspicion CFM wise the neutral vane is the best option. fine dust separation is going to be the baffle. I think Loring's experience with the neutral vane and simply cleaning down the canister every so often is probably the magic combination...
        Last edited by dbhost; 12-03-2021, 05:34 PM.
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        Comment

        • LCHIEN
          Internet Fact Checker
          • Dec 2002
          • 21082
          • Katy, TX, USA.
          • BT3000 vintage 1999

          #49
          Calculating CFM by wind speed can be tricky. To get uniform laminar flow in a duct they recommend (I can't recall the exact number) 10 to 20 diameters of the smooth duct before and maybe after the meter.

          Although I guess maybe its not so important to be accurate if you just want a relative number. Still, you have to watch out for non laminar flow differences between the two that may occur because of geometry and speed.
          Last edited by LCHIEN; 12-03-2021, 06:43 PM.
          Loring in Katy, TX USA
          If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
          BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

          Comment

          • dbhost
            Slow and steady
            • Apr 2008
            • 9253
            • League City, Texas
            • Ryobi BT3100

            #50
            Originally posted by LCHIEN
            Calculating CFM by wind speed can be tricky. To get uniform laminar flow in a duct they recommend (I can't recall the exact number) 10 to 20 diameters of the smooth duct before and maybe after the meter.

            Although I guess maybe its not so important to be accurate if you just want a relative number. Still, you have to watch out for non laminar flow differences between the two that may occur because of geometry and speed.
            Honestly, I wish someone with a more engineering bent would crunch these numbers for me, but since that isn't the kind of engineering I do, I have to take the data, and crunch the numbers to the best of my ability. And honestly I want to know CFM at the intake, and I want to know CFM at the intake of the separator and do a side by side comparison of the 4 states.

            #1. With the OE impeller after the separator.
            #2. With the OE impeller at the intake port.
            #3. With the Wen impeller after the separator.
            #4. With the Wen impeller at the intake port.

            I am looking to see what kind of an improvement the Wen impeller actually provides, AND I am looking to see what kind of a CFM hit the External separator gives me.

            I am seeing a LOT of conflicting results between a Then separator, and a full out cyclone with a HF 2HP DC. Most say the true cyclone is less of a hit, but some say the Thien is only slightly less, and the more cake in the filter, the numbers flip. Not sure I believe that...

            Once I have those numbers, I intend on getting numbers to compare the following states.

            #1. With the Wen impeller at the intake port. No separator.
            #2. With the wen impeller at the intake port and Neutral vane.
            #3. With the wen impeller at the intake port and Thien baffle.
            #4. With the wen impeller at the intake port and both Neutral vane and Thien baffle.

            The last state I know only one person that has both a Neutral Vane and Thien baffle, but OE impeller.

            Hopefully it is obvious I am trying to maximize my minimums by gathering data.

            And long term, I think the max airflow the 2HP motor can really support well, IF Bill Pentz research is to be believed, is 5". And I am more than willing to go with 5" duct. The more I dig, the more I am finding but oh boy is it tough to find fittings online that aren't super expensive. Yes I know seam orientation with HVAC duct is reverse of ideal for dust colelction, but it can be made to work...
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            Comment

            • dbhost
              Slow and steady
              • Apr 2008
              • 9253
              • League City, Texas
              • Ryobi BT3100

              #51
              Made the Home Depot run. Picked up the project panel, picked up a 24" piece of 6" snap lock for the neutral vane.

              Got the printout done at Office Depot of the Neutral vane template...

              Did some grocery shopping.

              Got the oil changed on the Chevy since I just don't want to climb under the car right now.

              Had to go to AutoZone to get taillight bulbs as turn signal part of one of the 3057s burnt out and my turn signals died... I kind of want to avoid being pulled over for something stupid.

              Swapped tail light / turn signal bulbs.

              Anemometer arrived. Reading the owners guide...
              Last edited by dbhost; 12-04-2021, 03:05 PM.
              Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

              Comment

              • twistsol
                Veteran Member
                • Dec 2002
                • 2912
                • Cottage Grove, MN, USA.
                • Ridgid R4512, 2x ShopSmith Mark V 520, 1951 Shopsmith 10ER

                #52
                Put on the Santa suit today and was called out by my three year old granddaughter with no hesitation. "Grandpa, why are you pretending to be Santa Claus?"

                we are now watching her first dance competition.
                Chr's
                __________
                An ethical man knows the right thing to do.
                A moral man does it.

                Comment


                • capncarl
                  capncarl commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Pretty hot sitting watching a dance recital in a Santa suit isn’t it?
              • dbhost
                Slow and steady
                • Apr 2008
                • 9253
                • League City, Texas
                • Ryobi BT3100

                #53
                Okay, I am messing up on the forumla for CFM. Wind speed at the inlet is faster than the anemometer can read with a max of 69mph. At the Separator I am reading 60mph.

                1 mile is 5280ft. I am measuring 60mph, so dividing that by 60 to get fpm is moot.

                I have 5" duct and I am too lazy to measure it, but I believe pi rsquare is the forumla for area of a circle, so 2.5 throug that formula is 19.63, and divided by 12 to get square feet instead of inches, I get 1.653

                So in order to get CFM from this data, I should first square the area of the duct, 1.653 squared is 2.7324

                Thus 5280 x 2.7324 is 14,427.072 CFM. AFTER the Wen impeller upgrade.

                And honestly there is no way that can be right.

                I CAN believe 1442.7072, move the decimal one to the left, but even then, that is more than a little optimistic isn't it? Am I actually pulling close to 1500CFM at the duct of the separator? That seems crazy high to me!

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                Comment


                • twistsol
                  twistsol commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You need to divide by 144 to convert from square inches to feet. That should get you closer.
              • mpc
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2005
                • 982
                • Cypress, CA, USA.
                • BT3000 orig 13amp model

                #54
                twistsol has 1 part of your answer: incorrectly converting the radius in inches to feet.
                5 inch pipe has a cross sectional area = pi times (2.5 inches/12 inches per foot)^2 = 0.136354 square feet or you could do it as:
                5 inch pipe has a cross sectional area = pi times (2.5 inches)^2 = 19.63 square inches; divide that by 144 (=12^2) to get to square feet = 0.136354 as twistsol's answer said.

                CFM = airflow velocity in feet per minute multiplied by cross sectional area in square feet. You don't square the duct area as part of the CFM calculation.
                So your measured 60 MPH = 60 * 5280/60 = 5280 feet per minute.
                CFM is thus = 5280 feet per minute * 0.136354 square feet = 719.9 cubic feet per minute

                I bought a $65 gizmo from Amazon to measure airflow. It can display in all sorts of units: MPH, ft/min, meters/sec, etc. It also measures CFM assuming a) you enter the cross sectional area into it (easy to do), and b) the flow is "uniform" throughout that area which is not a good assumption. Still, it is pretty useful in measuring "before" and "after" to get relative performance (e.g. 20% flow loss due to some object).
                HOLDPEAK HP-856A Digital Anemometer on Amazon There are many similar units. I see there is a slightly cheaper version now that does not have a USB computer connection port like the one I purchased.

                Using this Anemometer, I measured my hard-piped DC system at several points. The 90 degree elbows caused less CFM drop than many online CFM calculators estimated.
                I ended up doing a little science project to get my own "Item xxxxx causes yyyy static pressure loss per foot" data based on one branch of my piping. Using those factors to compute CFM and static pressure on other branches compared favorably to my updated calculations.

                My setup uses 6 inch HVAC 26 gauge mains and 4 inch HVAC for drops, with 4 inch flex hose to the tools. My anemometer confirms I have >3500 ft/min in the 6 inch mains when drawing through the 4 inch flex hoses. More than 3500 ft/min mains is what is suggested to avoid dust/debris falling out of the airflow. My 4 inch drops measure out to more than 4000 ft/min at the hose ends so they satisfy the suggested >4000 ft/min for vertical drops. The issue is any restrictions at/inside the tool itself... I can measure the flex hose before I plug it into the tool but if the tool has significant airflow restrictions (many do) that clobbers the air velocity and CFMs. The Ridgid EB4424 oscillating belt/spindle sander is the biggest problem as it has only a 2.5 inch hose port. I set up a 4 to 2.5 inch adapter (non-tapered) with extra holes drilled in the adapter face to not choke off the airflow. That seems to work okay. The BT3 also has a small port but I wye off additional hoses to evacuate the BT3 cabinet and blade guard. The DC itself is the 1.5 HP Laguna cyclone with HEPA filter. For the most part I'm satisfied with the setup. It beats my previous "drag the flex hose across the floor from tool to tool" on a Delta 50-720 DC. When I don't use the blade guard port on the BT3 I get more tabletop sawdust bits than I did when plugging a shop vac directly into the BT3... there are cases where high suction beats high CFM/low suction. The EB4424 works better with shop vacs too.

                mpc
                Last edited by mpc; 12-04-2021, 05:37 PM.

                Comment

                • dbhost
                  Slow and steady
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 9253
                  • League City, Texas
                  • Ryobi BT3100

                  #55
                  Originally posted by mpc
                  twistsol has 1 part of your answer: incorrectly converting the radius in inches to feet.
                  5 inch pipe has a cross sectional area = pi times (2.5 inches/12 inches per foot)^2 = 0.136354 square feet or you could do it as:
                  5 inch pipe has a cross sectional area = pi times (2.5 inches)^2 = 19.63 square inches; divide that by 144 (=12^2) to get to square feet = 0.136354 as twistsol's answer said.

                  CFM = airflow velocity in feet per minute multiplied by cross sectional area in square feet. You don't square the duct area as part of the CFM calculation.
                  So your measured 60 MPH = 60 * 5280/60 = 5280 feet per minute.
                  CFM is thus = 5280 feet per minute * 0.136354 square feet = 719.9 cubic feet per minute

                  I bought a $65 gizmo from Amazon to measure airflow. It can display in all sorts of units: MPH, ft/min, meters/sec, etc. It also measures CFM assuming a) you enter the cross sectional area into it (easy to do), and b) the flow is "uniform" throughout that area which is not a good assumption. Still, it is pretty useful in measuring "before" and "after" to get relative performance (e.g. 20% flow loss due to some object).
                  HOLDPEAK HP-856A Digital Anemometer on Amazon There are many similar units. I see there is a slightly cheaper version now that does not have a USB computer connection port like the one I purchased.

                  Using this Anemometer, I measured my hard-piped DC system at several points. The 90 degree elbows caused less CFM drop than many online CFM calculators estimated.
                  I ended up doing a little science project to get my own "Item xxxxx causes yyyy static pressure loss per foot" data based on one branch of my piping. Using those factors to compute CFM and static pressure on other branches compared favorably to my updated calculations.

                  My setup uses 6 inch HVAC 26 gauge mains and 4 inch HVAC for drops, with 4 inch flex hose to the tools. My anemometer confirms I have >3500 ft/min in the 6 inch mains when drawing through the 4 inch flex hoses. More than 3500 ft/min mains is what is suggested to avoid dust/debris falling out of the airflow. My 4 inch drops measure out to more than 4000 ft/min at the hose ends so they satisfy the suggested >4000 ft/min for vertical drops. The issue is any restrictions at/inside the tool itself... I can measure the flex hose before I plug it into the tool but if the tool has significant airflow restrictions (many do) that clobbers the air velocity and CFMs. The Ridgid EB4424 oscillating belt/spindle sander is the biggest problem as it has only a 2.5 inch hose port. I set up a 4 to 2.5 inch adapter (non-tapered) with extra holes drilled in the adapter face to not choke off the airflow. That seems to work okay. The BT3 also has a small port but I wye off additional hoses to evacuate the BT3 cabinet and blade guard. The DC itself is the 1.5 HP Laguna cyclone with HEPA filter. For the most part I'm satisfied with the setup. It beats my previous "drag the flex hose across the floor from tool to tool" on a Delta 50-720 DC. When I don't use the blade guard port on the BT3 I get more tabletop sawdust bits than I did when plugging a shop vac directly into the BT3... there are cases where high suction beats high CFM/low suction. The EB4424 works better with shop vacs too.

                  mpc
                  Yes, the Rigid sander is better with a shop vac. Likewise small handheld tools like sanders. Table saw, and even the Ryobi planer with a 2.5" duct, and Sunhill jointer, again 2.5" duct do seem to work better via the DC...

                  There is a good reason I use both... However in full honesty, I tend to just connect the DC to the EB4424 even though the shop vac works better. The DC is a LOT less noisy...

                  The FPM on the far side of the separator is actually quite reassuring. WIth the OEM impeller I was reading 42mph instead of 60, so there is a pretty big difference there. Not quite but close to 30%...

                  I had intended on grabbing a couple of joints of 5" today, but my local home depot duct section was all messed up. The shelf where the 5" was supposed to be had 10" in it...

                  I am flattening out the 24" segment of 6" I was able to manage to get... So I am planning on setting up the neutral vane.

                  Since I can't get a reading at the inlet, I am unsure how to measure differences.

                  My anemometer is a HoldPeak 866B. The max reading on the 866B is 30m/s, the 856A like you showed goes up to 45m/s. I bet yours could actually measure the velocity at the impeller inlet. That is a data point I really wanted but couldn't get. Probably send this thing back.

                  So you are using 6" mains with a 1.5HP cyclone? I was thinking 6" was recommended for 3-5HP collectors / cyclones. That's why I have been flailing on trying to find / source up 5" fittings. I have found 5" HVAC duct fits inside dust collection 5" fittings, and 4" S&D PVC fits OVER 4" DC fittings with some heat on the PVC and a stretch fit...

                  My plan then is to use HVAC 5" main to reduce to 4" and convert to S&D as close to the tool as possible. I guess I would use HVAC metal 4" but I already have the S&D...
                  Last edited by dbhost; 12-04-2021, 11:43 PM.
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                  Comment

                  • GrumpyDad
                    Established Member
                    • Jul 2020
                    • 165
                    • Midwest
                    • Ryobi BT3100, BT3000, Sawstop PCS

                    #56
                    Started building the new Sawstop PCS and associated stand, I have been anticipating this day for a long time
                    Harumpf!
                    GrumpyDad

                    Comment


                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Please Describe your PSC stand
                  • LCHIEN
                    Internet Fact Checker
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 21082
                    • Katy, TX, USA.
                    • BT3000 vintage 1999

                    #57
                    Drove 50 miles to Laporte Texas today to visit the USS Texas on the San Jacinto river/Houston Chip Channel. She has been closed for almost two years and they are are open today and Sunday for visiting.
                    She will be closed again Monday for some serious work including patching of the hull enough so it can make a 40 mile trip to Galveston in 2022 where she will probably be in dry dock for a long time before being moved to a new home. Compared to the Iowa class ships, she is smaller and 30 years older, but up close, she is still an amazing war machine.

                    Hard to believe she is 109 years old and seen two world wars. I hope she sees another hundred years.
                    Afterwards we had late lunch at the Monument Inn, a seafood restaurant just down the road for some seafood, and then took a drive around the San Jacinto Monument where Texas won her independence. Did you know the San Jacinto Monument is 15 feet taller than the Washington Monument?

                    Came home and had dinner with my daughter who is due to have a baby girl before Christmas.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by LCHIEN; 12-05-2021, 11:42 PM.
                    Loring in Katy, TX USA
                    If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
                    BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

                    Comment

                    • LCHIEN
                      Internet Fact Checker
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 21082
                      • Katy, TX, USA.
                      • BT3000 vintage 1999

                      #58
                      60 mph is 88 ft/sec. (old conversion factor I memorized in High School)
                      Converting to FPM that is 5280 FPM
                      The area of the duct is Pi R^2 in inches is is 2.5^2 x pi = 19.634 sq inches
                      Divide by 144 to get square feet is 0.136 square feet
                      Air flow (CFM) = Velocity x area = 719.9 CFM

                      So for 5" duct your conversion factor can be 720 CFM/60 mph = 12 CFM/MPH

                      so for future readings just multiply your MPH x 12 to get CFM

                      That assumes perfect flow across the whole diameter, in reality due to drag, the airflow falls to near zero as it approaches the walls. so it will always be an optimistic, upper bound value.
                      Last edited by LCHIEN; 12-05-2021, 12:45 PM.
                      Loring in Katy, TX USA
                      If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
                      BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

                      Comment


                      • dbhost

                        dbhost
                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        60 mph is also 1 mile per minute as there are 60 minutes in an hour. I am trying to solve for per minute so per second only introduces potential error points. However, yes, your math does look quite right. My error was dividing square feet by twelve to get square inches, not twelve squared. Oops...

                        I am SERIOUSLY wishing my Anemometer would read high enough to catch what is going through the DC.

                        HOWEVER, assuming typically published losses through a Thien external separator of around 45%, I am WELL above 1K CFM at the DC, so going with the neutral vane instead, I have every reason to believe that I am pulling in reality 12-13 hundred CFM, and should be able to support 6" duct...

                        It is worth noting that in my current shop, I run the main immediately at the input level of the DC which is on a stand. Thus we are about 36" off the floor. I do have one overhead run that goes to the workbench / table saw.

                        My main is 18' end to end with one 90 deg bend at the end which is in reality 2 45 degree bends and a short run of straight pipe between to get to the lathe. The new shop will likely have a similar configuration, although I doubt I will make the floor level run to the TS / Router table but instead run a drop next to the TS and carry over the short distance to the router...

                        So the big question remains, 5" or 6". 5" is what Bill Pentz' documentation reccomends for sub 3HP dust collection systems, 6" for 3HP and above.

                        Yes there are massive variances in CFM / Air speed between dust collectors with the same HP motors. Hence the reason I so badly wanted a 12" impeller in my HF DC.

                        To say dust collection, specifically the ducting, is a confusing and can be an expensive undertaking. I KNOW 5" will work, but it is expensive comparatively, AND limits me in potential upgrades in my system should I be able to say swing a ClearVue 3HP at some point...

                        Likewise, 6" may be pushing it a bit.

                        Mind you, changing the intake port / flange on the HF DC is not that difficult to do, and if done using a replacement flange / drilling the screw holes, can be utterly reversible.

                        I am to be blunt, on the fence between 5 and 6".

                        I honestly want to go 6", but I am concerned about performance of the HF DC, even with the Wynn filter and Wen impeller (Wynn and Wen?!) through 6" duct. I think if I do not use a separator before the impeller but instead use a neutral vane, and / or Thien separator baffle IN the DC itself AFTER the impeller, I should be good to go for 6"...


                        Oh and back to what I did today...

                        Shot video of the youth choir, and when I say youth, pee wees, wow was that funny!

                        Recieved my evaporative canister purge relay and swapped it out, cleared the code, now I need to run the car for 70 miles or so...

                        Put chicken strips in the oven for lunch...

                        Wrote this post...
                    • mpc
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2005
                      • 982
                      • Cypress, CA, USA.
                      • BT3000 orig 13amp model

                      #59
                      Originally posted by dbhost
                      So you are using 6" mains with a 1.5HP cyclone? I was thinking 6" was recommended for 3-5HP collectors / cyclones. That's why I have been flailing on trying to find / source up 5" fittings. I have found 5" HVAC duct fits inside dust collection 5" fittings, and 4" S&D PVC fits OVER 4" DC fittings with some heat on the PVC and a stretch fit...

                      My plan then is to use HVAC 5" main to reduce to 4" and convert to S&D as close to the tool as possible. I guess I would use HVAC metal 4" but I already have the S&D...
                      Yup, 6 inch mains on a 1.5 HP DC. In general, it is recommended to have at least 3500 ft/min in the horizontal mains to keep sawdust and chunks suspended in the airflow... and 4000 ft/min or more in vertical pipes.

                      My Laguna DC's cyclone inlet is a 6 inch port with an external plastic wye to two 4 inch ports. I'm not using that wye.
                      Laguna rates my unit at 900 CFM inlet @2 inches of water inlet restriction. My anemometer measured about 850 CFM at the inlet with a short bit of 6 inch HVAC pipe.
                      My DC inlet connects to 6 inch flex hose (so I can move the DC a bit to access/empty the drum) which then makes a 90 turn to go vertical. Hardly optimal. The first hard pipe it hits is a flue wye that starts the two main branches. I measured about 770 CFM at the wye ends - at the start of my two mains.

                      My mains are split: one runs along the walls at the same height as the DC inlet; this serves my tools mounted to roll-around cabinets via 4 inch drops. The other branch climbs to the ceiling and runs along it with a pair of 4 inch drops to service the BT3, a small bandsaw, a RAS, etc. Those 2 drops wye into 2 or 3 tool ports at their bases but only one blast gate is ever open at a time.

                      The far end of the lower/wall mounted main is roughly 21 feet from DC inlet with a couple 90 and 45 degree bends, it passes through a few wyes (each starts a drop). I measured 650 CFM at this point. That is 3310 ft/min flow rate... a tad low. If I had 5 inch mains it would be 4767 ft/min.

                      Far end of the ceiling main is about 25 feet from the DC inlet with 3 fairly sharp 90 degree bends, 2 wyes. I measured 632 CFM at this point. That is 3219 ft/min in the mains... also low. With 5 inch mains it'd be 4635 ft/min.

                      Those CFMs and flow velocities are at the ends of the mains... not at any tool drop/connection point. The drops, and the tools themselves, add more restrictions so those CFM and velocity numbers are the "maximum possible" values... reality is much different.

                      Note that I'm loosing around 200 CFM in either main. I have some 90 degree bends, using 6 inch HVAC adjustable elbows, that are probably tighter radius than the 1.5R typically recommended, plus a nasty non-straight feed to the DC... both violate the guidelines you find all over the Internet. Many "how to plan your DC piping" write-ups predict doom and gloom if you have any tight bends, any flex hose, and don't have several feet of straight pipe feeding the DC inlet. I may be loosing some potential performance but it's certainly not "doom and gloom" as those articles preach. My pipe layout would make some of those Internet authors gag... I was not going to remodel the shop to optimize dust piping. First, there really isn't much I can to to move tools around and still have room to work; certainly no way to arrange them based on optimizing dust collection. Second, I shuffle my shop regularly as tools get added or replaced... or when I have yet another idea on how I might arrange the shop... which is why I wanted generic drops every so often similar to how folks like to space electrical outlets. Most woodworking tools need 200 to 400 CFM dust collection flow and I have around 400 CFM at all flex hose ends (measured) with my setup. Maintaining 400 CFM at each tool should be the main goal, not going nuts trying to eek out every last bit of airflow efficiency as those authors harp on. At 400 CFM, the flow velocity in my 6 inch mains is only 2037 ft/min; in 5 inch mains it would be 2934 ft/min. Both are below the suggested 3500 ft/min... but are they too low to actually work? Mine works...

                      As for 5 inch versus 6 inch mains on a 1.5 HP DC system... the key factor is can you maintain enough airflow velocity - so sawdust doesn't settle out of the airflow - in the mains based on the DC performance combined with the restrictions at the tool itself which chokes airflow? Is my 6 inch mains velocity too low? For some tools it apparently did drop too low - those tools with restrictive ports like the EB4424 - they choked the whole DC system. As soon as I switched to some other tool, with a fairly unrestricted 4 inch port, the mains velocity picked up and I heard some stuff get vacuumed to the DC. That told me the restricted ports did let stuff settle in the mains. My system, operating at around 2037 ft/min in the mains when 4 inch tool ports are in use, does not have settling issues so, even though I don't meet the >3500 ft/min goal, my system performs adequately. With 5 inch mains the air velocity would be higher so there would be less chance of settling.

                      Using a spring-loaded flapper door to add extra airflow at the end of a mains run is one way to restore higher velocities in the mains when a restrictive tool port is in use. The door should remain closed most of the time and only crack open if excess vacuum builds up in the mains. Or drill extra holes in the 4 inch to 2.5 inch adapters to preserve CFMs at such tools as I did with my EB4424 drop. After drilling those extra holes I don't think I have much settling in the mains because I no longer hear anything when opening a 4 inch port again. 5 inch mains might maintain enough airflow velocity with the EB4424 to avoid settling. A 5 inch pipe has about 69% of the cross sectional area as a 6 inch pipe which means, to maintain a given air velocity, it needs only 69% as many CFMs. So it's 31% easier for a DC to maintain sufficient air velocity in a 5 inch pipe compared to a 6 inch pipe. You need about 477 CFM to maintain 3500 ft/min in a 5 inch pipe and 687 CFM to maintain 3500 ft/min in a 6 inch pipe. Big difference.

                      5 inch pipe, in theory, is more restrictive than 6 inch pipe so some of those simple calculations are not perfectly accurate. The higher the air velocity in a pipe the more restrictive it acts. 5 1/4 inch piping might be ideal for my DC setup. Your plan to use 5 inch mains and 4 inch drops for a souped-up HF DC looks like a matchedt combination.

                      My anemometer measurements indicated the last bit of flex hose - where the tools connect - is the lossiest part of my system for the 4 inch tools. So optimizing the HVAC elbows and whatnot would not make much difference. The 2.5 inch tool ports are their own worst enemy. HVAC piping was 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost of Oneida and other "true" dust collection piping. I did need a lot of metal foil tape though... HVAC joints leak A LOT!

                      Several articles recommended matching your mains size to the DC inlet size which is why I went with 6 inch mains. Plus 6 inch metal HVAC stuff was more available than 5 inch, especially things like flue wyes. It wasn't until after my system was built, and after I bought and used the anemometer to measure performance, that I made a spreadsheet to do a detailed analysis. Knowing then what I know now, I might have done some experiments with 5 inch piping. But, since my system basically functions, I'm satisfied. My Laguna's actual CFM capability (not rating!) is at the high end of 1.5 HP models which helps. Another factor: when I did use the "move the hose from tool to tool" method, that stupid flex hose often zapped me with static electricity. Which was very annoying. So I wanted metal pipes. I've read the horror predictions about using plastic pipes in a dust collection system - that static electricity will lead to the dust in the dust collector exploding - but that wasn't my reason for wanting metal pipes. I was simply tired of getting zapped by the flex hose. My whole setup is grounded; the internal wire of the flex hoses is grounded at the metal blast gate fitting. If that reduces any potential explosion risk too then goody.

                      For the cost of my HVAC pipe versus "true" DC piping I'm even more satisfied with my system's performance. The convenience of blast gates and no static electricity buildup, versus moving one long flex hose tool-to-tool, is worth it. Hand-held router use and hand plane use still make a mess. As does the lathe.. so even with a hard-piped DC system there is still some manual cleanup to do.

                      mpc
                      Last edited by mpc; 12-05-2021, 02:31 AM.

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                      • dbhost
                        Slow and steady
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 9253
                        • League City, Texas
                        • Ryobi BT3100

                        #60
                        Oh and back to what I did today...

                        Shot video of the youth choir, and when I say youth, pee wees, wow was that funny!

                        Recieved my evaporative canister purge relay valve and swapped it out, cleared the code, now I need to run the car for 70 miles or so...

                        Put chicken strips in the oven for lunch...

                        Priced up 6" duct components, which are WAY cheaper than 5 inch. Total for parts $361.26 + tax...

                        Painted patched areas of sheetrock, found a massive sanding flaw once paint was one. Waiting for paint to dry, remud, paint again and test...

                        Painted the upper edge of the master bedroom where the wall meets the ceiling. Needed to get that straightened out for a good while. Moving on to lower areas and trim. Still have some carpet to rip out and prep for flooring... In case folks had forgotten, one part of my perpetual remodel is ripping out every stitch of carpet from the house, replace it with laminate flooring. No need to keep allergens in the house longer than we have to!

                        Once these walls dry, I need to gorilla tape together some heavy duty trash bags to make a plastic sheet since I don't feel like buying a big one, and use that as a makeshift dust door to close off the master bathroom. I have floated lots of new mud in there to take up the gouges in the sheet rock caused by my wifes idea of wallpaper removal. Gone is the tacky 1984 wallpaper though. Can't wait to paint it in the tacky 2022 paint!

                        Put on chicken and veggies in the instant pot. Wife gets to tackle more cleaning and she made a huge breakfast for us that is still holding tight... so only fair I should chuck something in the pot...

                        Tommorrow night IF the weather holds, we are doing home made grilled over charcoal chicken fajitas with frijoles a la charra, and fresh pico de gallo... If the weather isn't good, the fajita goes on the Foreman grill...

                        Work stuff is problematic at this point. Users needed a fix friday from a different team and are not happy that team gets weekends off for some reason...

                        One of my smoke alarms went funny when it experienced a drywall dust cloud, my fault entirely, so I tried airing it out via compressed air, no dice... Ordered a new one from Home Depot. Not super swift delivery but should be here by middle of hte weekish...

                        The few remaining bits for the compressed air plumbing system for Santa to put under the tree have been ordered. And my lovely bride informed me that a sum of money was spent with a certain store, but no idea what she ordered...

                        Her gifts came in over the last few days. She would know what they were if they saw the return address, so I opened the packages, inspected the items to be sure they were okay, repackaged them in repurposed boxes, and taped the living snot out of them. Then cut out and ran the shipping labels through my shredder.

                        However she is likely to spoil her suprise.

                        Gifts for the extended family are in progress, as best I can weasel in my cluttered shop while cleaning.

                        Most of the family has gone with Alexa devices, including FireTV devices with Alexa, and COVID has caused the majority in our family to take up playing certain MMORPGs as a means to do something together and keep in regular touch. I am knocking together some walnut controller charging / headphones / Remote stands. These are basically stands with a little box thing on the back to stash the FireTV remote, with holders for 2 sets of headphones, and 2 dualshock 4 controllers. Joinery will be simple oak dowels, so construction SHOULD be simple. The plan is to finish routing, Mark, Clamp, Drill, dowel / glue, let dry, sand, and give it a bath in BLO, wrap em up...

                        I have 8 of these I am doing.

                        Of course if I totally mess this up, everyone gets a Toblerone instead...
                        Last edited by dbhost; 12-05-2021, 08:03 PM.
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