New Shop on order

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  • cwsmith
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 2740
    • NY Southern Tier, USA.
    • BT3100-1

    New Shop on order

    Well after years of saving every possible nickel, I finally made the decision to get a new shop; one that is outside of the living area.

    When we bought this old home ten years ago, I setup shop in the basement and that seemed to work out okay for awhile. But about five years ago, there was a serious fire that destroyed a large apartment building a few blocks away and the prevailing winds saturated our neighborhood with a lot of smoke and fumes (one of those idiots who decided his apartment was a great place to have a meth lab...he's in jail now). Since then, my wife had become super sensitive to any wood smell and all work in my little basement shop came to an abrupt. So I haven't produced any sawdust in quite some time now.

    My two-stall garage is pretty much occupied by the two vehicles, and the 8 x 20 side storage area there, is filled with stuff. I had solicited a few bids earlier this summer to see how much it would cost to have that storage area expanded to 12 ft wide and 24 ft long. That would require tearing out two of the existing walls in that area and pouring new concrete roughly 4 x 20 and 4 x 12 in an L-configuration. One wall would need to be extended about four feet and two new walls erected, and a new roof. Price was draw-dropping at between $21,000 and $26,000; and that was just for framing, as I would do everything else (wiring, insulation, shingles, siding, etc.). Additional complications were that because I was going to tear down something, the city required a third party inspection from a certified environmental expert and paperwork being filed with the State EPA, plus fees, further inspections, files, etc. Periodic inspections during the process, etc.

    So, long-story-short, we opted for an Amish-built 12 x 20 work shed. I still had to go through the building permit process and also had to make a presentation to the Zoning Board of Appeals, because the city only allows a shed of 16 ft in length. That wasn't a particularly big deal, as I've made plenty of presentations in my lifetime. So filled out the forms, made the drawings, provided illustrations, photos, and even a Google Earth photo to show the exact location as well as all the other sheds, garages, etc. in the neighborhood. It took about a month, but I did get approval and ordered the building. That was about three weeks ago, and so now I'm looking forward to delivery within the next couple of weeks.

    I've got the lot leveled out (there was only a six-inch difference because of a slight incline), the trees cut back, and this week I'm ordering the gravel. Got a quote on that last Wednesday... not bad at $65... but add another $200 for delivery!

    The layout is done and I'm pretty sure how I'll position my woodworking tools. When it arrives, the first thing will be to wire the place, pretty much have that worked out too, I think. Four circuits at this point, brought in from the garage which is only three feet from the left end of the new building. This coming summer, I'm planning to attach to the garage with a passageway. I had a 100 amp service run to the garage about three years ago, so no problem there, that I can see. After I get the circuits wired, I'll be insulating the walls and ceiling and then installing a combination of drywall and OSB, with the OSB lining the overhead storage lofts at each end.

    Challenge at this point will be heat. I know I'll have to run a gas line (I think NatGas is to most cost efficient) but that is probably going to be the biggest expense, and at this point this year's budget is shot. I've already talked to the gas company, and they told me where I can tap into the line, but I'll need a sub-contractor for that. The heater alone is some about $1400 or so, not firm on that yet, and then there's the installation fee, piping, excavation etc. Seems like close to $2K, just for heat, is a bit much for a part-time hobby.

    Question at this point is what do any of you recommend? The building is only 12 x 20 with a 10' 6" high Gambrel roof. Floor space-wise, that's only 240 sq ft. That doesn't seem like a lot of space, but the supplier that I talked to about the wall heater tells me I'll need at least 30,000 BTU's.

    I'm open to suggestions,

    CWS
    Think it Through Before You Do!
  • woodturner
    Veteran Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 2047
    • Western Pennsylvania
    • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

    #2
    Originally posted by cwsmith
    Question at this point is what do any of you recommend? The building is only 12 x 20 with a 10' 6" high Gambrel roof. Floor space-wise, that's only 240 sq ft. That doesn't seem like a lot of space, but the supplier that I talked to about the wall heater tells me I'll need at least 30,000 BTU's.
    How warm do you need the shop to be, how cold does it get in your area, and will you really use it much in the winter?

    If you DIY spray foam the walls and roof, are comfortable with a 60 F or so temperature, and stay inside on the coldest days, you can manage with a portable electric or kerosene heater - that's what I do. The quartz electrics will be on close out soon, and $100 or less will get you enough to keep you and your immediate work area warm, but won't heat the whole building.

    The traditional solution is a wood stove - and you can probably find a used one and install it for $500 or less, and it will provide plenty of heat. You will need enough wood to feed it, though - probably more than just your scraps from woodworking. It's still probably the most economical option, particularly if you want the room toasty warm.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

    Comment

    • cwsmith
      Veteran Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 2740
      • NY Southern Tier, USA.
      • BT3100-1

      #3
      We keep the house at 65 during the day and at 60 at night, so I'm comfortable with that. We live in NY's southern tier, so the temps here in the winter are pretty much in the low teens to upper twenties on most of the really cold days, with an occasional drop below zero.

      The shop is open, with no partitions. So I can't isolate an area to warm. It's not that this is a full-time hobby, but at this point in life it will be my place to work and play between 9:00 am and 8:00 pm.

      Back in the early 80's I used my attached garage (Painted Post home) for an office/studio for three years when I had my own business. It was not insulated and I used a kerosene heater which made it comfortable temperature wise. But I didn't like the smell, and it left a coating on everything, so I don't want to go with that.

      At that house, I eventually remodeled that garage into a family room, where I did all of my illustration and writing. I had the local gas appliance company install a gas wall heater made by Empire. Back then it was about $900 for everything, it is considerably higher now, and for a separate building there's the cost of the gas line, excavation, etc. I'd like to do that here, as that heater is completely sealed from the interior and the heater box is vented to the outside. But that's certainly not affordable this year.

      A wood stove sounds great and I've entertained that idea, but the city here is really cracking down on their use and I think that would take up some valuable floor space. I just got rid of a heaping truck load of seasoned fire wood back in August. I had cut and stacked it for our fireplace, but since the wife's allergy that wasn't going to work.

      I've given serious thought to an electric quartz heater as they're pretty cheap right now, $150 or so. I entertained going LP for this winter too, as a 30,000 btu floor or wall hung unit would run me just less than $300, plus the tank. But they guy I talked to didn't recommend it for woodworking shop, as he said cleaning would be problematic. I figured I cut just shut it off when I'm producing saw dust or varnishing, etc.

      But then I figured maybe I ought to post and see what the forum members have experience with.

      Thanks for the input, it's very much appreciated,

      CWS
      Think it Through Before You Do!

      Comment

      • atgcpaul
        Veteran Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 4055
        • Maryland
        • Grizzly 1023SLX

        #4
        Take pics. So this thing gets delivered in one piece or is built on site? Will they have time to do all that if bad weather comes?

        Comment

        • poolhound
          Veteran Member
          • Mar 2006
          • 3195
          • Phoenix, AZ
          • BT3100

          #5
          Not sure how well it would work in the cold NY winter but have you considered a wall ac unit that's also a heat pump so you can heat the shop in winter and cool it in the summer.

          My shop is a similar size to yours (18x13) and of course being in AZ I care more about cooling but it does get cold in the winter and it heats the space really well.
          Jon

          Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
          ________________________________

          We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
          techzibits.com

          Comment

          • vaking
            Veteran Member
            • Apr 2005
            • 1428
            • Montclair, NJ, USA.
            • Ryobi BT3100-1

            #6
            Originally posted by poolhound
            Not sure how well it would work in the cold NY winter but have you considered a wall ac unit that's also a heat pump so you can heat the shop in winter and cool it in the summer.

            My shop is a similar size to yours (18x13) and of course being in AZ I care more about cooling but it does get cold in the winter and it heats the space really well.
            When temperature outside drops below 40F - heat pump will not work. Heat pump works well only when temperature difference between inside and outside is no more than 20 degrees. If you want to have 60 inside and outside is below 40 - you will need something other than heat pump.
            Alex V

            Comment

            • JR
              The Full Monte
              • Feb 2004
              • 5633
              • Eugene, OR
              • BT3000

              #7
              Man, the Internet is a weird place. Embedded right in this thread was an ad from Tractor Supply regarding shop heating.

              They have a 40KBTU propane tank-top thing for about $100 that would get you through this winter. If you wait until next summer for a permanent solution you might find suppliers will be more flexible on pricing.
              JR

              Comment

              • woodturner
                Veteran Member
                • Jun 2008
                • 2047
                • Western Pennsylvania
                • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                #8
                Originally posted by vaking
                When temperature outside drops below 40F - heat pump will not work.
                It's not that they don't work - they will work to 0 F or below - it's that the efficiency and effectiveness drops. It's an issue of sizing the unit - if the unit is sized for the 0 F days, it requires a larger, more expensive unit. Usually they size them for the 30 F temperatures and rely on secondary heat to provide supplemental heating.

                A ground water heat pump avoids this issues entirely and works well regardless of ambient temperature, since it is exchanging heat with the relatively constant ground temperature.

                A heat pump would be a good option, and would provide cooling in the summer as well for no additional installation cost. Heat pumps tend to not last as long as furnace, maybe a 10 to 15 year lifetime, and installed cost is likely to be $2K to $3K, which seems to not be in the budget.
                --------------------------------------------------
                Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                Comment

                • woodturner
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 2047
                  • Western Pennsylvania
                  • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JR
                  Man, the Internet is a weird place. Embedded right in this thread was an ad from Tractor Supply regarding shop heating.
                  "Scarier living through Google" - or something like that (Google is the one that is mining and aggregating your personal internet habits and selling them without telling you or giving you the option to opt out).

                  That type of heater could be a good option - but there is no fan to move the air and they make the propane smell. If OP is interested in that option, after Christmas there will be closeouts on them, I think I paid $10 each for the 20Kbtu units I bought. A couple of smaller units spread around the shop could do a reasonable job of warming the shop. A single unit near the work area would warm that area, but it might seem could if you move outside the "bubble".
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                  Comment

                  • woodturner
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 2047
                    • Western Pennsylvania
                    • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                    #10
                    Originally posted by cwsmith
                    The shop is open, with no partitions. So I can't isolate an area to warm.
                    I don't have partitions either - it's essentially an open garage. A heater will warm an area, a "bubble" if you will, around it, but if you move beyond the bubble it will be colder. Depending on the size of the heater and what you are doing, that may be enough. When I am working on the car or handplaning or doing more active work, it's enough for me, but I think your temperatures may be a bit colder than ours. When I am doing finer handwork - sitting at the bench carving, for example - the heat is not enough, I move to the basement.
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                    Comment

                    • cwsmith
                      Veteran Member
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 2740
                      • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                      • BT3100-1

                      #11
                      atgcpaul,

                      The shed comes fully built (framed, sided, windows, and doors installed) and is trucked up here from southern PA and then positioned on my city lot (60 x 120). I had to level the position and gravel it for proper drainage. The gravel will go in this week. I've also got to remove a chain-link fence (doing that today). What I will have to do once the shed is in place is the wiring, insulation, and finish the interior walls.

                      I do plan on taking pictures as I go through this whole process. Here's a link to the shed manufacturer: http://g-csheds.com/

                      poolhound and vaking,

                      I think that's a good idea, and it may come down to that eventually. I saw in one of my books a conventional-looking A/C unit that also provided heat. But neither my local Lowes or HD, have those. HD does have a Mitsubishi display and I talked to the fellow a couple of weeks ago about this. Cost on that would be about $2500, so there's something to think about maybe next year. But it does seem to be a bit on the expensive side compared to gas wall heater and a separate A/C unit. For A/C, I figure a 12K btu unit would be more than enough. Heat is something else though and the few people I've talked to seem to think that even a 30K btu unit isn't going to be enough. It's not like I plan to work out there in the winter, wearing just shorts and a T-shirt.... I'd be perfectly happy at 60 degrees.

                      JR,

                      Thanks, that might be an avenue worth exploring for at least this winter. We've got a TSC back in Painted Post where I know the people. I think the nearest one to us here in Binghamton is out in Owego. I'll have to take a look at that. My local LP supplier has portable space-type heaters that are self standing or can be wall mounted. But they are closer to $300. Again, this is something I'd have to shut off and probably cover to keep the sawdust out of it when I'm cutting.


                      Woodturner,

                      I appreciate your views on a heat pump. I wasn't aware of their shorter lifetime. I discussed a few issues with the Mitsubishi rep at HD. From what I've read, these types of units are very popular in Asia, perhaps more so than central systems. I will have to spend some more time looking into this, as opposed to the Empire furnace. Saw dust and the resulting cleaning is a big question.

                      Thanks to everyone for your advice,

                      CWS
                      Last edited by cwsmith; 11-29-2015, 11:16 AM.
                      Think it Through Before You Do!

                      Comment

                      • capncarl
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 3568
                        • Leesburg Georgia USA
                        • SawStop CTS

                        #12
                        Using manual j of the heating calculator, 40 btu / sf, 10,000 btu should be fine.
                        Is there any way the builder can insulate the floor before delivery? That is the hard part for you to do once it is delivered, right near impossible. A lot of heat is lost through the floor. If it is possible to get the floor insulated it could be worth every dime toward the heating bill. Also consider a vapor barrier underneath. The rest of the insulation is easy enough for you to do after delivery.

                        Comment

                        • capncarl
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 3568
                          • Leesburg Georgia USA
                          • SawStop CTS

                          #13
                          One thing I just thought of, are you going to heat only when you go into the shop or set the thermostat and leave it? I found that I can heat / cool my shop ( 950 sf ) with a 14000 window ac/ heat pump unit by setting the thermostat and leaving it. At first I turned it on and off every time I used the shop but it took forever to heat and cool and I was uncomfortable most of the time waiting on the temp to get right, and I believe the power bill was higher this way. Now it doesn't effect the bill more than $25 a month.

                          Comment

                          • radhak
                            Veteran Member
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 3058
                            • Miramar, FL
                            • Right Tilt 3HP Unisaw

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JR
                            Man, the Internet is a weird place. Embedded right in this thread was an ad from Tractor Supply regarding shop heating.
                            Why don't I see any such ads? Why this discrimination ?
                            ( I don't like ads a lot, but maybe on this forum it might be interesting. I need to see what I did to turn them off)

                            About this thread, gotta say this: Living in FL, heat in the workshop is one thing I've never had to worry about. Lot of 'con', but that's one sure 'pro'.
                            (Sorry, I'm honestly just 'speaking out aloud', not rubbing it in for y'all)
                            It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
                            - Aristotle

                            Comment

                            • JimD
                              Veteran Member
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 4187
                              • Lexington, SC.

                              #15
                              I would definitely try little space heater. I would be surprised if it wouldn't raise the temperature to 60 F once the insulation is in. I do not heat or cool my shop at this point - just got the walls insulated and covered with osb - but I may use a window heat/cool unit at some point. It is small, 14x24 with the walls and ceiling insulated and conditioned space above it. It is usable almost all the time now but hot in summer (so I open the back door and the garage door on the front and hope for a breeze) and cool in winter (live with it or do something else). Even a small space heater will put out 10,000 btus. In a small space, it makes a big difference. If I have to use mine in the winter I would plan to drag a space heater out there.

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