Drones everywhere!

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  • cwsmith
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 2742
    • NY Southern Tier, USA.
    • BT3100-1

    #31
    My last word on the subject as i don't believe in making unnecessary arguments with those who have their own convictions.

    First off, I don't believe everything that I see on TV; and since this situation with my neighbor was well documented by the police, and eventually involved a lawyer and court in which they were found guilty of criminal harassment. I guess I believe the police when they tell me what I can and cannot do with a camera. (These neighbors were eventually evicted, thankfully!)

    But, here is a quote from the NOLO -law for all web site: Different states have different laws regarding surveillance. In some states, mere visual recording is not illegal so long as the camera is on your neighbor’s property. In other states, visual recording is acceptable but any audio recording is not. And in other states, all forms of recording might face criminal or civil penalties. Generally, any publically viewable areas like back yards are fair game – which is how companies like Google can record their Street View images across the United States.

    And from an video article in the NY Times of Nov. 3. 2010:
    “It matters how you’re doing it and why, but generally it’s true that you can film your own property as well as anything that is in public view,” said David Ardia, director of the Citizen Media Law Project at Harvard’s Berkman Center for Internet and Society. “It’s when you extend your senses into unexpected places, like using a telephoto to film what’s going on in your neighbor’s bedroom, that you could run into trouble.”

    There are lots of internet postings taking both sides of the issue. But basically if you intentionally set up a surveillance camera to record a neighbor's private area you could run into trouble with the law if the neighbor objects, feeling that your camera is harassing them.

    Moreover, I find the opinions focusing on the differences between what is 'publically viewable' and what is 'private'. The front of your house, the walk, the driveway are all publically viewable, and maybe even your backyard if it so open and observable from surrounding neighbors. But a privacy-fenced in area is NOT.

    While over flying your property with a drone may not be much, any kind of continued or repeat surveillance from a drone may fall into the same category.

    Another thought that I had regarding so-called air space and whether someone has rights to what is over their property. I take this only from my own experience with putting up a long wire antenna. While I might well be able to put up such antenna on my own property, there can be some concerns should a neighbor object to it's unsightliness. Basically my Right to do so falls under Federal Law and is governed by the FCC as my license gives me the Right to do so. However, local ordinances, neighborhood restrictions may cause me some challenges. But such challenges are often overcome by Federal authority.

    But lets say I really want a long wire antenna... one that stretches well beyond my property; and what if I go to the neighbor two houses over and he allows me to anchor the other end of my wire to his tree? So, I have the wire anchored on my tree and on his... BUT, the wire crosses over someone's property who doesn't want it there, even though it's 30 or more feet up! That, I am not allowed to do. So, in some (if not all) circumstances you do own the air above your property.

    Enough said from me,

    CWS
    Last edited by cwsmith; 08-04-2015, 07:13 PM.
    Think it Through Before You Do!

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    • capncarl
      Veteran Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 3570
      • Leesburg Georgia USA
      • SawStop CTS

      #32
      It seems that we have progressed, or degressed, pick one, to a society of rules and laws that can be deciphered in different ways, and have to rely on police, lawyers and the court when the best way to handle things like privacy invasion is a good case of whoop ass. Yea, that will result in more lawsuits, but that seems to be what is wrong.
      capncarl

      Comment

      • woodturner
        Veteran Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 2047
        • Western Pennsylvania
        • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

        #33
        Originally posted by cwsmith
        But lets say I really want a long wire antenna... one that stretches well beyond my property; and what if I go to the neighbor two houses over and he allows me to anchor the other end of my wire to his tree? So, I have the wire anchored on my tree and on his... BUT, the wire crosses over someone's property who doesn't want it there, even though it's 30 or more feet up! That, I am not allowed to do. So, in some (if not all) circumstances you do own the air above your property.
        From your cites, it appears restrictions on "surveillance" vary with local laws and are subject to interpretation, which likely explains the difference between your experience and mine.

        I wonder if your antenna example is another case where local law may alter federally granted permissions? In your example, if I were the guy in the middle, I might not like it, but if the antenna is high enough to not interfere with my use of the property, it is legal, at least around here. As a practical matter, in areas with overhead utilities, it is common to run the wires across other properties. It is like that in my neighborhood - the utility has a small easement where the poles are located, since they occupy ground space, but they do not need an easement to run a wire 30' in the air across private property.

        I hope my neighbors in the middle don't read this and want me to take down the antenna we ran between my house and a fellow ham's house a few doors down.

        I think the law has yet to catch up with more recent technological advances. I suspect in time we will see more laws restricting what you can do with a drone, and perhaps even laws to restrict observation or photography of "private" but publicly visible activities and areas. In the mean time, I think people respond better when asked to participate in decisions, be involved, and have a say. For example, when we ran the antenna, we asked the neighbors in the middle, even though it was not required. It's the courteous thing to do and I think helps avoid problems. In my experience, people are usually reasonable and easy to deal with if treated with respect and kindness.

        I do think the guy who shot down the drone was way over the line. As facts emerge, it's clear that the drone was not over his property when downed and was several hundred feet in the air. He has been charged with the destruction of the drone and I suspect will be convicted. He appears to be one of those people who think they have "rights" and others don't, or at least that their rights take precedence over the rights of others.
        Last edited by woodturner; 08-05-2015, 05:22 AM.
        --------------------------------------------------
        Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

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        • leehljp
          Just me
          • Dec 2002
          • 8441
          • Tunica, MS
          • BT3000/3100

          #34
          This is interesting. Obviously we have some precedents for which we do not have specific laws yet, nor have they been clearly discussed in the context of drones. I think the future laws will deal every bit as much with "drones" per se, as with their location and function. Drones are there to "see". Wires for antenna are not. Antenna wires do not invade privacy, but can be argued as some kind of electric emission potentially. Drones invade privacy.

          The next phase of a drone law will be what one can do to prevent it personally. It can be argued that "Airspace being open" doesn't hold water in light of some communities "sunshine laws". If a consortium or individual can be prevented from building a high rise due to blocking scenery or sunshine, then the argument can be made for "my space". These are two different reasons but the bottom line is - it is a matter of "personal space" 1. to see outward (sunshine law) or 2. to protect from seeing inward (privacy). Either way, the reason is built on the individual's personal space.
          Last edited by leehljp; 08-05-2015, 10:18 AM.
          Hank Lee

          Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

          Comment

          • jussi
            Veteran Member
            • Jan 2007
            • 2162

            #35
            Wow get away from the forum for a few days and you miss alot. I'm a newbie to the drone hobby. Funny thing is alot of people I've met hate that word because it brings up such bads things in people's minds. They prefer to call them multirotors, but it's a losing battle I think. I have a few smaller quads (more toy grade than hobby) but am finishing up my first build. I've only tested it out in my backyard so far. When I'm done I will be flying it at a local park that has a spot designated for rc flying. Personally I'd be way to scared to fly it over neighborhoods. The thought of damaging property or worse yet a person freaks me out. Even if you didn't hit anything, if you leave a Lipo battery could cause damage if not removed quickly enough.

            Makes me sad and angry to see all this bad publicity for drones in the news. Not just for the trouble they are causing but also for detriment it does to the hobby. To me it's like any other device in that it can be used for good or bad and is really dependent on the user. I guess the main difference between drones and rc planes or helis is that they're so much easier to fly. Someone totally new could have a rtf drone in the air and hovering in minutes but it would probably take days or weeks for that same person to do on a heli. The FAA published some rules months back regarding drones. I don't remember all of them but I think the main restrictions were to fly them line of sight, a given distance from any airport, and under 400ft (unless there is structure within a given distance that is above 400ft). I've been on the RC forums alot lately and listening to podcasts and one possible solution I've heard is to give law enforcement kill switches. Almost everyone uses a premade flight controller so it would be easy enough to compel manufacturers to install them on their devices.
            Also you don't need a $1000 machine to get watchable video. A $50 syma will get you youtube quality videos. Just won't be stabilized.
            I reject your reality and substitute my own.

            Comment

            • capncarl
              Veteran Member
              • Jan 2007
              • 3570
              • Leesburg Georgia USA
              • SawStop CTS

              #36
              Folks in my neighborhood are taking the drone situation seriously, and to keep from peppering the neighbors truck with birdshot the drug out something a little larger. Nothing says anti-drone like a 40mm Bofor.

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              capncarl

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              • vaking
                Veteran Member
                • Apr 2005
                • 1428
                • Montclair, NJ, USA.
                • Ryobi BT3100-1

                #37
                Originally posted by capncarl
                Folks in my neighborhood are taking the drone situation seriously, and to keep from peppering the neighbors truck with birdshot the drug out something a little larger. Nothing says anti-drone like a 40mm Bofor.

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]22049[/ATTACH]

                capncarl
                To be honest I don't like the direction this is all going. At first we are discussing if it is legal to shoot down the drone and when, then we shall be talking if it is legal for the drone to defend itself when somebody tries to shoot it legally or otherwise. I have already seen an article about a guy who mounted a gun on a drone and the article concluded that if the gun itself was legal - mounting it on drone was legal too. Before long we will have an all-out war. So far every "Man vs Machine" type war we started - machines won. Sure today drones are slow and easy targets but that will not be so for long. Improving machine s a lot easier than improving man.
                Alex V

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                • TB Roye
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 2969
                  • Sacramento, CA, USA.
                  • BT3100

                  #38
                  Radar tracking Pellet gun or RC rockets that shouls be fairly easy to do. I saw a video on FB not to long ago. Small calibre gun on a drone the recoll moved it a little but it stabilized quickly that would be scary and then thre would be a war.

                  Tom

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                  • capncarl
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 3570
                    • Leesburg Georgia USA
                    • SawStop CTS

                    #39
                    Your Honor, I rest my case. (Reference post #32)
                    capncarl

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                    • woodturner
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 2047
                      • Western Pennsylvania
                      • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                      #40
                      Originally posted by vaking
                      I have already seen an article about a guy who mounted a gun on a drone and the article concluded that if the gun itself was legal - mounting it on drone was legal too.
                      I don't think that would be legal - but that is my opinion, not a verified fact. I recall when people were importing MIGs and Russian tanks for collections, years ago, and customs confiscated the weaponry. I thought it was illegal for anyone other than the military to fly armed aircraft in the US, but I could be wrong
                      --------------------------------------------------
                      Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

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                      • atgcpaul
                        Veteran Member
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 4055
                        • Maryland
                        • Grizzly 1023SLX

                        #41
                        My City just updated some ordinances for the parks. Noone can do model rocketry on public land unless they have permission from the city manager and the like. There was a drone flying over the playground for quite a while this spring. Kind of annoying but I guess within his rights--for now. The drone looked more like a Radio Shack model but man could it move! We also have a small airport surrounded by neighborhoods. I really worry it's just a matter of time someone innocently (or not) makes contact.

                        Comment

                        • TB Roye
                          Veteran Member
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 2969
                          • Sacramento, CA, USA.
                          • BT3100

                          #42
                          Last night on the new there was story about a Drone that crashed into a local resoviour and sank. Due tthe Drought our here in CA and the dropping water level a women walking on shore found the drone and camera attached to. The camera containd a video of the operator waving at it as ti flew away and as it crashed into the water and sank with the camera still rolling. The water wasn't to deep as there was enough light to film fish swimming by upside down. The drone had sunk upside down and that is how she found it. They now posting the video on Social Media in hope of finding owner and returning the drone to him. you can go to KCRA.com or look KCRA up on FB or Twitter to see it. Actualy there are two stories on FB Search for KCRA scroll down. Judging by the comments Drones are not real popular.

                          Tom
                          Last edited by TB Roye; 08-06-2015, 11:43 AM.

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                          • PushyMonk
                            Forum Newbie
                            • Jul 2015
                            • 9
                            • NYC
                            • Ryobi BT31000-1 & RTS21, Grizzly 715p.

                            #43
                            http://youtu.be/tBZSgTCL_n0 Way to go.. Wasn't iti illegal to not pay the Kings taxes some 200 years ago?

                            Comment

                            • jussi
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 2162

                              #44
                              Check out this drone story.

                              I reject your reality and substitute my own.

                              Comment

                              • leehljp
                                Just me
                                • Dec 2002
                                • 8441
                                • Tunica, MS
                                • BT3000/3100

                                #45
                                Originally posted by jussi
                                "It might be a different story when she becomes a teenager."
                                Love it!
                                Hank Lee

                                Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

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