Table top with breadboard endings

[radhak]

I am building a tabletop, to be made of 4/4 American Cherry. I'm planning to give it a breadboard ending using Brazilian cherry. There's a distinct color difference between these two that I hope will pop out once finished. The main body of the table is going to be 50" long, while the endings at both ends will be 5" wide each, bringing the total length of the top to 60", and width of 30"

For joining the breadboard piece, instead of cutting tenons, I want to use a floating spline, 1/2" thick, and across the width of the top (say, 28" long)

Questions are -
a. how wide should the spline be (or, or how deep must the slots to hold the spline be)? A 2 inch wide spline and slots of 1" (on each piece) would do? Or should it wider?
b. can I use 1/2" thick plywood for the spline? I was thinking ply would eliminate the potential for wood movement with hardwood.

[leehljp]

The point behind bread board splines is to allow for movement. The end breadboard does not move as much as the length boards do from one side to the other. Most breadboard designs I have seen are pinned with sliding pin holes or glued only in the middle 10 to 14 inches. Before I did this, I would google bread board construction and see what pops up.

With the bread board being perpendicular to other boards - allowance for movement is a must.

[LCHIEN]

Good point, hank

[radhak]

Yes, that was the idea - to allow for the width-wise movement of the top, I would allow for sliding pin holes in the end boards while gluing the spline to the main top.

But I see a problem when I use a spline (particularly if it's a plywood spline): the spline would not move with the top, nullifying the whole idea. Maybe I should glue the spline to the breadboard ends, and allow the sliding holes on the side of the top.

[leehljp]

I think you got it now. The bread board end will not move that much and can be glued to the plywood spline; the movement must be between the spline and main table boards.

One more thing, the bread board end, It will have support from up under, won't it? Otherwise someone leaning on it could break it off.

[JoeyGee]

Hank, do you mean like an apron or something? I am not picturing what else would be under a breadboard end.

[leehljp]

Hank, do you mean like an apron or something? I am not picturing what else would be under a breadboard end.

Yes. At 70, the correct terms are leaving me. I still remember the concept but not the words!

The basic support frame underneath. If it does not extend to the middle of the bread board, think of what a 200lb growing boy could do leaning on it half asleep in the morning waiting on breakfast! BTW, there are several methods of attaching with screws that allow for movement in different directions.

[radhak]

Thanks Hank.
I was looking at somebody's technique of not using glue at all for breadboards: he has used spline for alignment, and then used long connector screws and cross dowels to attach the ends to the top : http://www.angelfire.com/art2/tables/ Intriguing, but somehow does not feel strong enough to me. Or maybe I'll combine the two.

Yes, the frame/legs of the table go all the way to under the ends of the top, so fully supported:

[capncarl]

Redhak.... photo of the breadboard table slab ends on the last dining room table I built. Photo is kinda hard to determine, but the breadboard end has a toung cut in it and the top slab has the mating groove. There are 3 Kreg type screws that hold the breadboard ( 1 shown in the photo) that are slotted rather than the Kreg type drill . I've seen this table expand about 1/8" during seasonal changes.

[atgcpaul]

Was browsing YouTube last night and came across this build. It's probably the more traditional way of doing breadboard ends. The tongue/tenon are mortised into the breadboard and the two are pinned together using pegs. He starts talking about the breadboards around the 40 second mark.

I built this sideboard at least 12 years ago in a Greene and Greene-esque style with a breadboard top. The top is ipe. I cut just a 1/2" or 3/4" long tenon (tongue is probably more appropriate) the full depth of the top and trimmed it back about an 1" from each end. The breadboard end received a matching groove.to mate with that tongue.

Rather than using the drawbore peg technique like in the video, you can see I drilled through the breadboard end and have the breadboard secured to the top with deck screws. The screw holes are covered with contrasting plugs. I did apply glue to just the center of the breadboard and the screw holes are elongated. (Pardon the dust; I've been patching drywall nearby) I think this method is similar to what you have linked above. I don't think I added any crossdowels into the ipe endgrain. I think I screwed directly into the endgrain.



I didn't want to see the tongue from the side so I have a piece of wood in the shape of a decorative cloud lift inserted into that area. That detail was taken from a Popular Woodworking article, I think.




As you can see, not much of the sideboard base is supporting the breadboard end. Although I don't make it a point to sit on or lift the sideboard by those ends, I know people have lifted it up by those ends and it's been OK.

BTW, that contrasting wood is not ebony. It's walnut that's been brushed with a steel wool/vinegar solution. The solution turns the walnut black.

Since your base/apron/frame will be supporting most of your tabletop, I think you'll be fine with your plywood spline. Question for the OP, though. How do you plan on cutting the groove in the end of your top? Are you going to use a slot cutting router bit or try to hold the table upright and pass it over a dado blade?



Paul

[radhak]

Redhak.... photo of the breadboard table slab ends on the last dining room table I built. Photo is kinda hard to determine, but the breadboard end has a toung cut in it and the top slab has the mating groove. There are 3 Kreg type screws that hold the breadboard ( 1 shown in the photo) that are slotted rather than the Kreg type drill . I've seen this table expand about 1/8" during seasonal changes.

Cap, that's a neat idea! I can see the slot working fine for movement. I presume you did not use any glue at all in that joinery? How thick/ wide/ long/ deep are the tongue/groove?
It must take some careful measurement to ensure the kreg screw mates with the tongue on the breadboard, right?

[radhak]

Was browsing YouTube last night and came across this build. It's probably the more traditional way of doing breadboard ends. The tongue/tenon are mortised into the breadboard and the two are pinned together using pegs. He starts talking about the breadboards around the 40 second mark.


I built this sideboard at least 12 years ago in a Greene and Greene-esque style with a breadboard top. The top is ipe. I cut just a 1/2" or 3/4" long tenon (tongue is probably more appropriate) the full depth of the top and trimmed it back about an 1" from each end. The breadboard end received a matching groove.to mate with that tongue.

Rather than using the drawbore peg technique like in the video, you can see I drilled through the breadboard end and have the breadboard secured to the top with deck screws. The screw holes are covered with contrasting plugs. I did apply glue to just the center of the breadboard and the screw holes are elongated. (Pardon the dust; I've been patching drywall nearby) I think this method is similar to what you have linked above. I don't think I added any crossdowels into the ipe endgrain. I think I screwed directly into the endgrain.


I didn't want to see the tongue from the side so I have a piece of wood in the shape of a decorative cloud lift inserted into that area. That detail was taken from a Popular Woodworking article, I think.


As you can see, not much of the sideboard base is supporting the breadboard end. Although I don't make it a point to sit on or lift the sideboard by those ends, I know people have lifted it up by those ends and it's been OK.

BTW, that contrasting wood is not ebony. It's walnut that's been brushed with a steel wool/vinegar solution. The solution turns the walnut black.

Since your base/apron/frame will be supporting most of your tabletop, I think you'll be fine with your plywood spline. Question for the OP, though. How do you plan on cutting the groove in the end of your top? Are you going to use a slot cutting router bit or try to hold the table upright and pass it over a dado blade?

Paul

Thanks for the video, Paul. That was a real close look at how all this goes together.

And also thanks for all the details from your own build. I was worried about keeping the tenons long, but if 3/4" worked for you, takes a load of my mind. Deck screws are comforting too!

Your final question is pertinent, and a bit worrisome for me: I do have a slot-cutting router bit though I have not used it yet, and I have a nice dado set and a good jig to hold work-pieces upright, but the size of that top is daunting. 4/4 Cherry is heavy, and once I glue up the individual planks, the 50" x 30" top is gonna be unwieldy.

My router table (and router) is great, but doesn't offer too much support on this side of the router bit, not for this size of a top. And that table-saw jig might handle the top, or it might not.

Have to think this thru - do I cut the groove in the individual planks (~ 5" wide) and risk some misalignment when gluing up?

Or, maybe I should do like you, and have the tongue on the top and the groove on the breadboard endings. But that'd still mean I have to cut the tongues/tenons on the top!
(Of course, I have to first check if the lengths of the planks allow for an inch extra on either side).

[atgcpaul]

Your final question is pertinent, and a bit worrisome for me: I do have a slot-cutting router bit though I have not used it yet, and I have a nice dado set and a good jig to hold work-pieces upright, but the size of that top is daunting. 4/4 Cherry is heavy, and once I glue up the individual planks, the 50" x 30" top is gonna be unwieldy.

Exactly why I asked it I have a slot cutting bit, too, but unless you setup some extra fences, you're going to be cutting the full depth on the first pass. I personally would not stand something that large on end.

With the integral tongue on the top, it's very easy to put the dado stack in your saw and cut the rabbet on the ends of your top *while it's laying flat*. If you want to conceal the tongue when viewed from the side of your breadboard, you can carefully drop (OK, not actually drop, but you know what I mean) your breadboard onto the spinning blade to cut a stopped groove and then clean up the saw curve with a chisel. You can also do that safely with a straight bit on your router table.

[capncarl]

I cut the groove on the table top with the router using a 1/4" slot cutter. An end cutter would be really hard to cut an accurate groove. Unless it gets totally out of control it won't mess up the table end, a little bit of wobble won't matter. Glue or clamp a sacrificial board on the sides of the slab to prevent tear out. This is a whole lot easier than trying to cut the groove on the table saw. The tongue could be a piece (tendon) that is cut into the breadboard rather than creating a tongue. This piece will be hard glued into breadboard. I always glue up the slab because the expansion will be laterally rather than linearly. The breadboard with the tongue must be fitted into the groove for an easy slide. This takes a little work with the sander. The breadboard should not be an extension of the table to obtain a predetermined length, it should just be a cap for the end of the table. If it is a thick breadboard it will inevitably be damaged by someone picking up the table with it!

[radhak]

Thanks Cap, good detail there!

[capncarl]

On the tables that I build with breadboard ends that I don't wont the tounge and groove visible I make the tounge and grove "blind". That is, the tounge is about 1" from each end of the breadboard and the groove is cut about 3/4" from each end of the table slab. it is still allows the breadboard to float and allows for expansion and contraction of the table slab.
Capncarl