How to make and finish boxes efficiently

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  • poolhound
    Veteran Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 3195
    • Phoenix, AZ
    • BT3100

    How to make and finish boxes efficiently

    I want to start making a variety of simple boxes for sale at craft fairs. These are intended for simple utilitarian uses such as a remote caddy, tea box etc. The idea is to construct with simple mitered corners, ply bottom glued into a slot.Some will have loose lids and some none. Construction should be fairly quick but finishing is always a pain, primarily the inside. I was wondering what might make the process as efficient as possible. All surfaces would be finished sanded before glue up but I did wonder if I could do the bulk of the finish before they are glued up leaving only maybe a final coat.

    Has anybody tried doing something similar, maybe even finishing the boards before you make the miter cuts and slots?

    Thought?
    Jon

    Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
    ________________________________

    We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
    techzibits.com
  • tfischer
    Veteran Member
    • Jul 2003
    • 2343
    • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
    • BT3100

    #2
    I've started doing interior staining before glue-up on all my projects starting with the two dressers I built last year. I try to keep stain out of the glue-up area but Titebond says it shouldn't matter anyway.

    My finish as of late has been spray lacquer which allows me to fairly easy do final finishing on the completed item.

    Comment

    • JoeyGee
      Veteran Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 1509
      • Sylvania, OH, USA.
      • BT3100-1

      #3
      I have also been using spray lacquer (from a can) almost exclusively lately. It's quick, easy and takes very little time between coats.
      Joe

      Comment

      • poolhound
        Veteran Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 3195
        • Phoenix, AZ
        • BT3100

        #4
        I have not done much spraying is it easy to get good coverage with no drips on the inside of a box that is say 24"x 8" or smaller? I do have one of those HF HVLP sprayers that has been sitting in the box for quite a while, maybe this is the time to get it out.
        Jon

        Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
        ________________________________

        We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
        techzibits.com

        Comment

        • JoeyGee
          Veteran Member
          • Nov 2005
          • 1509
          • Sylvania, OH, USA.
          • BT3100-1

          #5
          I go the expensive route and just use the spray cans. You pay more, but for me, time is precious and there is no setup and clean up of guns, etc.
          Joe

          Comment

          • capncarl
            Veteran Member
            • Jan 2007
            • 3564
            • Leesburg Georgia USA
            • SawStop CTS

            #6
            I stain my Tiny Tables before glue up, but have not tried to stain before cutting. I suspect tear out and splintering would have to be touched up after cutting.

            I was looking at some small jewelry boxes at a craft shop recently. Rather than having mitered sides they had 1 large box joint on each side. The builder said that he made all the ends sides at one time in a thick stack to cut its box joint and all the long end sides in a thick stack to cut the adjoining fingers. He makes 6 boxes sides in each stack. The top was also used a single box joint for each side and the top fit down into the box nicely. The top was also cut in stacks. The bottom fit like you said, in a slot, and kept everything square. The last assembly step is to saw cut the top off after the glue dries. He said this method was quicker for him than making mitered corners, and he could produce a lot of boxes the same size easily. His finish was sprayed stained poly. This eleminates the stain process but makes the glue up more critical to keep squeeze outs and glue smudges off the surfaces.

            How much do do you think you will ask for your boxes?

            Comment

            • mpc
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2005
              • 979
              • Cypress, CA, USA.
              • BT3000 orig 13amp model

              #7
              An accountant friend of mine once did the books at a place that slaps out speaker cabinets. They gave him a tour of the production line. The raw material gets the finish applied before any cuts are made. In the case of boxes made with wood or vinyl veneer, the flat board gets a series of 90 degree "V" cuts in it - through the substrate wood but not through the vinyl - and then glue is applied and the whole board is folded into a box. Speaker cabinets with wood veneers is done in a similar fashion except the V cut goes through the veneer too.

              For projects made with mortise and tenon joints, biscuits/Dominos, finger joints, or dovetails it seems one could pre-finish the parts prior to cutting the joinery. Or at least pre-finish all of the interior surfaces.

              Not all HVLP sprayers work very well. I have the basic Rockler one (looks identical to the HF model) and the $300 Earlex that is mostly blue plastic. The Earlex is night-and-day better than the Rockler one and is much easier to setup/use as well. Being able to rotate the air jets (the two protruding nozzles at the spray tip) quickly makes it trivially easy to switch from a wide fan spray (for painting large panels) to a spot-spray which is great for interior corners. You do have to remember to dial down the fluid opening when switching to spot mode too to avoid over-saturation of the paint which leads to runs/drips. The Earlex spray gun comes with a Teflon lined paint can making clean-up a quick job. I use water based finishes for the most part so clean-up can be done in the sink in just a few minutes.

              mpc

              Comment

              • poolhound
                Veteran Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 3195
                • Phoenix, AZ
                • BT3100

                #8
                Originally posted by capncarl
                I stain my Tiny Tables before glue up, but have not tried to stain before cutting. I suspect tear out and splintering would have to be touched up after cutting.

                I was looking at some small jewelry boxes at a craft shop recently. Rather than having mitered sides they had 1 large box joint on each side. The builder said that he made all the ends sides at one time in a thick stack to cut its box joint and all the long end sides in a thick stack to cut the adjoining fingers. He makes 6 boxes sides in each stack. The top was also used a single box joint for each side and the top fit down into the box nicely. The top was also cut in stacks. The bottom fit like you said, in a slot, and kept everything square. The last assembly step is to saw cut the top off after the glue dries. He said this method was quicker for him than making mitered corners, and he could produce a lot of boxes the same size easily. His finish was sprayed stained poly. This eleminates the stain process but makes the glue up more critical to keep squeeze outs and glue smudges off the surfaces.

                How much do do you think you will ask for your boxes?
                Interesting construction. when you say 1 large box joint do you mean one finger on one end and two on the sides? Do you possibly have a photo? I get that ganging multiple pieces together gets more joints cut at the same time but unless I am missing something it still seems that this would not necessarily be substantially quicker than miters. With an accurately setup miter sled or miter saw it seems like you could cut a lot of miters in the same time it would take you to simply align your stack of sides to start cutting box joints.


                In terms of pricing I am still considering that. probably $30ish on the low end up to around the $100 mark. Average will be somewhere in the middle i.e. $50-$60. This is where the whole efficiency of construction and finish comes in. These are intended to be very simple construction with no embellishments so the ability to batch will be critical. As a very rough SWAG (Seriously Wild Ass Guess) try this.

                Assume making a batch of 20 boxes of various sizes

                2 hours milling stock
                1-2 hour to cut all box parts

                Glue up really depends on joinery. Assuming miters with clean tight fitting joints could use the packing tape method and/or micro pin the joints. Would not want to get clamps involved. Should be able to do 10mins per box or better. so say 5 to 7 per hour thats 3 to 4 hours in glue up.

                Now have a total of 6-8 hours for 20 boxes.

                Finishing is now the issue and the big variable. For you sprayers out there how long would you estimate? Sanding of course depends on where in the process you put it. If you pre sand before assembly it would seem to be much more efficient.


                From a product costing and ROI perspective if you assume an aggregate 1 days (8hours) worth of sanding/finishing that makes 2 days total for 20 boxes. @ an average sale price of $50 thats $1000. Assume an average of ~2 bd ft of material @$5bdft add a couple of bucks to account for glue, finish and other consumables thats $12 or $240 for 20 boxes. This leaves you with $760 gross profit which is not too bad.


                Many assumptions here but you can see why spending 8 hours finishing each box by hand would not be a good idea.

                Feel free to beat me up on my assumptions

                Jon

                Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                ________________________________

                We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                techzibits.com

                Comment

                • cwsmith
                  Veteran Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 2737
                  • NY Southern Tier, USA.
                  • BT3100-1

                  #9
                  Slightly larger project I know, but when I built my library and the many bookcases and shelves, I layed out everything on my computer (CorelDraw and SketchUp), so that I knew exactly what cuts to make, what and where to drill for shelf pins, fasteners, etc. and then I made made a template out of 1/4" luan.

                  Since an assembled bookcase, like a box, would be a bear to finish after assembly, I did all the finishing before assembly. When I built a small table with drawer for the library, I used the same approach, applying the finish before assembly.

                  While is takes a little more care in assembly (so as not to mar the finish), that little extra effort was far less than the mess I perceived I would have trying to finish the inside for the drawer or the shelf areas.

                  When I was in high school, my shop class spent a lot of time learning to plan things out, design jigs and fixtures, and to just generally think about the manufacturing process of repeat cuts, assembly steps, etc. That kind of planning has pretty much gone into almost everything I've ever built or remodeled. Know what you need and you'll never have to set up for the same cut twice. Likewise with finishing... it's a lot easier to finish flat stock than it is to get a brush, wipe or spray into tight corners.

                  CWS
                  Think it Through Before You Do!

                  Comment

                  • capncarl
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 3564
                    • Leesburg Georgia USA
                    • SawStop CTS

                    #10
                    Making a variety of sizes at the same time could be a time killer. If you are making larger batches of different sizes, that's better. When you have a good number of units that the parts are the size, if you have a boo-boo you can sacrifice one unit for a replacement part, and finish it later and not have to back up and fab a replacement part.

                    Most of my Tiny Tables are each a different size, depending on the wood available for the top. The only thing that is almost standardized is the legs, but they are made from the same wood as the top, so they cant be easily mass produced. This greatly increases my build time. Batch building would really speed things up for me, but the Tiny Table market is small and identical tables in the gallery would be a turn off for customers.

                    The box builder that was showing off his work knew I was a woodworker. I didn't even consider taking photos. I'll see if I can find an example of his box online.

                    Sanding and finishing takes time, regardless to when you do it, before the build or after the build. On the box that I described the sanding and finishing was last but the builder didn't indicate it took that long, as he did it to batches. These boxes sell for $30-$50. His fit and finish is not flawless either.

                    Comment

                    • tfischer
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 2343
                      • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
                      • BT3100

                      #11
                      Originally posted by poolhound
                      I have not done much spraying is it easy to get good coverage with no drips on the inside of a box that is say 24"x 8" or smaller? I do have one of those HF HVLP sprayers that has been sitting in the box for quite a while, maybe this is the time to get it out.
                      I've had good luck with it using a low cost HVLP sprayer. Biggest problem with traditional lacquer is it's very flammable to spray and very toxic fumes. I use a decent respirator and try to spray outdoors when I can, or with the garage door open. The dry time is so short you don't have to worry as much about dust.

                      Comment

                      • poolhound
                        Veteran Member
                        • Mar 2006
                        • 3195
                        • Phoenix, AZ
                        • BT3100

                        #12
                        mpc, which water based finishes do you find work best? Do you think some are easier for newbie sprayers like me?
                        Jon

                        Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
                        ________________________________

                        We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
                        techzibits.com

                        Comment

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