Seeking Table Saw Advice

[ctc2000]

I am new to wood working and I am in the market to buy a table saw. While I will be a light duty user I want something versatile and high quality. I am interested in buying a tool that could in theory last a lifetime if used lightly and properly cared for. While I realize that the goal of any tool lasting a lifetime may be unreasonable I am simply trying to make the point that I don't want a piece of junk. I plan to use the saw around the house and more times then not will be making simple cuts. However, I want a saw that gives me the option to grow into it and that has the potential to theoretically perform any conceivable table saw task. I also am very interested in the possibility of adding a router table to a saw or buying a saw that comes with one as I am very interested in router projects.

I am having trouble deciding between the Craftsman 21829 which I understand to be a Ryobi BT3100 and a more expensive saw like a Rigid R4510 or Bosch 4100-09. The trouble I am having is that the Craftsman currently goes for $599.99 and I can get it on sale currently for $512.99. However the Rigid runs $499.99 and I cen get it on sale for $449.99. The Bosch runs $599.99 and I can get on sale for $539.99.

I guess what I am trying to determine is if a Craftsman (Ryobi BT3100) is worth paying over $500 for when I could get a Rigid or Bosch for the same price. I understand that when in production the BT3100 only cost about $300. For those of you who own and swear by this saw would you pay $500 for it today?

It is also important to mention that the Craftsman 21829 for $512.99 is basically a Ryobi BT3100 plus almost everything that is included in the optional Ryobi 8 piece accessory kit (which I understand costs around $100) plus a portable, folding, stand with wheels. The Craftsman comes with everything needed to use the router table feature which is important to me.

If I were to purchase the Rigid or Bosch I would only be getting the saw and the portable, folding, rolling stand. If I went with either of these I would have to purchase a rotuer table attachment such as the Bench Dog ProMAX Cast Router Table Extension for Table Saws for an additional $349.99. Essentially I would need to spend between $800 and $900 to get a Rigid or Bosch that has the same type of features that I am looking at in the Craftsman.

I hope all this makes sense and I am seeking input from you all on which route you would go if you were me.

Do you really think that the Rigid/Bosch is that much better than the Craftsman 21829(BT3100)?

Do you think I would be better served by the Rigid/Bosch long term vs the Craftsman 21829(BT3100)?

Would you rather spend $500 on the Craftsman 21829(BT3100) or go ahead and spend $800-$900 on the Rigid/Bosch with Bench Dog Router Table?

Do you think the Craftsman 21829 (BT3100) is worth $500? (Would you pay $500 for what is essentially a BT3100 today?)

Are there any other options or saws that I am not considering that I should consider? (Note: I would really prefer not to have a separate router table.)

Thanks in advance for your advice. I am looking to make the right decision here as I don't want to have to purchase another table saw in 2 years because I was too cheap to buy the right tool the first time.

-Corey

[LCHIEN]

I think that taking the 21829 as a $500 saw is setting the price too high. I'm not generally watching the price but I am aware that Sears has frequent discounts and sales.
FOr example open a sears charge account or use one you have you can get 5% off. They frequently have friends and family sales at 15% off. A lot of their discounts can be stacked on sales prices. Get on their mail/e-mail list and keep you eyes open. Members here say this saw is frequently discounted, below $400 I think is possible.

[greenacres2]

Welcome to our world!!

Do you really need the folding stand? Or do you simply need to be able to move the saw around? The Ridgid R4512 or Craftsman 21833 both list right at $500, and include a rolling base. Heavier and with a better stock fence than the collapsable versions would be. I ended up with the 21833 for about $340 in January with a sale and a $60 discount for purchase over $300.

With the hybrid class saws you also gain a wider table front to rear which helped my control of stock a lot. Having 12" of table in front of the blade made rip cutting much easier for me--others may feel differently.

As for the router table--with the longer rails that come on the "hybrid" 4512 or 21833, building an insert can be done for under $50, or purchase of a good mdf insert designed to fit between the rails--can be had for $150 or less. I love the cast iron top for my say, but like mdf for my router tables.

I had my BT3000 for nearly 20 years, and it was (still is) a great saw. But moving to the 21833 was like a different world for me. I still havent built the RT insert yet (already have a 24 x 32 table on a rolling cabinet--so not as urgent as some other things), but that will happen after i finish 3 or 4 other projects!! Good luck.

earl

[JimD]

I like my 3100 but for the same money I would buy the Rigid. Router tables are easy to make. I have one in a piece of melamine particle board in an extension table of the 3100. That looks easy to duplicate on the Rigid saw. I actually use a separate router table which I think you will eventually want if you have the space. The primary reason I would get the Rigid is the fact that it is a "real" table saw. The Ryobi design requires relatively frequent lubrication of the height mechanism and has a small top surface. These do not preclude precision work but they can be tiring. I do not consider the sliding table useful. If flexes too easily for me. A good miter gauge is more useful IMHO. The router table feature is easily duplicated resulting in a better router table. I like my 3100, but I am thinking of upgrading.

Jim

[leehljp]

This is just my opinion and it is very specific to me and my wants and needs. The Bosch is, IMO, built for job sites and moving around, - for more toughness than the Sears, (Ryobi). I was not really interested in toughness.

I wanted precision more than tough. To me, the only way to get "tough" and precision was in a saw of $700 - $800+ and that was the basic starting prices.

Some people have had problems with keeping the BT3000/3100 in alignment. I had two BTs. One when I was in Japan for years and the other back here. I still have both. In "moves" from one city to another, I had no problem with my BT staying in alignment, and I had registration tools to check it. I did have some problems with SMT on the BT3100 that I had here in the States, but that was fixed, once I figured out the problem.

Getting back to basics, What Loring said - the Sears equivalent is a little high priced and can be had cheaper, but if I had to do it again, I would choose a precision saw over a job site saw.

I will readily admit that I don't know just how accurate and precise, on a repeated basis, that the Bosch can do.

[capncarl]

The question that I would ask myself is how much floor space do you have to devote to a table saw, and how often will you use it? If you are like most of us the table saw is not used that much it becomes a place to pile junk, or you have to walk around it every time you go through the shop, or drag it out of the way when you have a larger project. I went from a full size table saw that I had about killed myself running into the table extension on, gave it away, and went to the craftsman 21829, just for the reason that it folded up and got out of my way. It's fold up features are far superior to the others and it is a good saw and meets my needs. Anyone can saw what they want about Craftsman equipment but at least they do have a parts department.
capncarl

[cabinetman]

Just some things to think about. You are looking for a long term saw, and want high quality. If your budget is geared for a jobsite type saw, or one that needs to be mobile, down the road you may want to upgrade.

You might consider a contractors saw or a cabinet saw. You can wind up with more power, a more stable saw, and one with standards that are easy to work with. You can always add a mobile base, if it's needed.

.

[woodturner]

I am having trouble deciding between the Craftsman 21829 which I understand to be a Ryobi BT3100 and a more expensive saw like a Rigid R4510 or Bosch 4100-09. The trouble I am having is that the Craftsman currently goes for $599.99 and I can get it on sale currently for $512.99. However the Rigid runs $499.99 and I cen get it on sale for $449.99. The Bosch runs $599.99 and I can get on sale for $539.99.

If you can wait a bit, Sears periodically runs sales and the 21829 can be bought for as little as $260 or so, if you "play the game". Watch deal sites like Fatwallet.com for the sale announcements and details on how to get that price.

What is important to you in a saw? If you want accuracy and cost is an issue, the Ryobi/Craftsman can be more accurate than even a Unisaw (which costs 3 to 5 times more). If you are doing heavy production work, a cabinet saw may be worth the premium, but even for pro work in a furniture shop many of us have replaced our Generals, Felders, and Rockwell/Deltas with the BT3's to improve accuracy and reduce maintenance costs.

The one feature the BT3X has that is lacking on most cabinet saws is the sliding miter table. Yes, you can get that on a $10K Felder, but if you don't have room for the 24 square foot footprint and don't want to spend $10K, it's not really an option. If you use the tablesaw for joinery, the sliding miter table is wonderful, and will enable far better accuracy than is possible with a miter gauge. Of course, on can build a sled for a conventional saw, and if carefully built it can approach the accuracy of the sliding miter table, so there are work-arounds if you opt for the cabinet saw.

Another option is a used BT3X - they can often be bought for $50 to $100 around here, in good condition. It could be an inexpensive way to try it out and see if you like it.

If you do opt for a cabinet saw, used saws are available. I've seen Unisaws in good condition go for around $300 locally. A used Unisaw for $300 is likely a better saw than a new cabinet saw such as a Grizzly or contractor's saw such as a Rigid.

[LCHIEN]

you also have to remember that the BT-3 series is a hobby saw, accurate, capable of most cuts with patience, lots of attachment points for accessories.
Its not a heavy duty production saw. Best for use by a careful user, not good for a guy who's hard on stuff. A finesse saw.
it also has the advantage that the base folds and the saw is relatively lightweight, for moving around and storage in a garage.

[cabinetman]

you also have to remember that the BT-3 series is a hobby saw, accurate, capable of most cuts with patience, lots of attachment points for accessories.
Its not a heavy duty production saw. Best for use by a careful user, not good for a guy who's hard on stuff. A finesse saw.
it also has the advantage that the base folds and the saw is relatively lightweight, for moving around and storage in a garage.

I agree. Not a saw for use in a professional shop, or for heavy production work. Standards for pro shops are saws like Unisaws and Powermatic. They are designed and built to operate on a daily basis for many maintenance free years. Equipped with a "T" square type fence and properly set up, provide the speed and accuracy needed for the most demanding work.

.

[woodturner]

you also have to remember that the BT-3 series is a hobby saw, accurate, capable of most cuts with patience, lots of attachment points for accessories.
Its not a heavy duty production saw. Best for use by a careful user, not good for a guy who's hard on stuff. A finesse saw.
it also has the advantage that the base folds and the saw is relatively lightweight, for moving around and storage in a garage.

All good points. It's not the best choice for production work with sheet goods, like cranking out mass produced kitchen cabinets. But then, shops doing that are likely using CNC controlled saws in this day and age.

In my experience, the real "niche" for the BT3 series saws is in solid wood joinery. The table size is really too small for sheet goods - though even cabinet saws need auxiliary tables to safely handle sheet goods. For joinery, though, the BT3 is great.

In a weak moment, I once agreed to produce 200 decorative boxes for the company run by a good client. The boxes were finger jointed and then carved. Producing 1600 finger jointed boards was a challenge, and we tried several ways of doing it. This was about 20 years ago, when CNC machines were not economically available for the smaller shop. We tried the router table and an Incra jig, which produced good joints but was too slow. We tried the table saws in succession - the Unisaw, then the General, finally in desperation the BT3. As I recall, the joints cut on the Unisaw varied in the range of 0.030" - enough to produce a visible joint gap. The General did a little better, but we were still getting 0.020" or so variability. With the Ryobi, though, we got the variability down to the 0.010" range, which produced tight, consistent joints. We were able to complete the production run with the Ryobi, along with a commitment to ourselves to never take on a production job like that again .

[greenacres2]

Correcting myself...

This morning i referred to the Ridgid R4512 and Craftsman 21833 as Hybrids, and they are both in the Contractor class of saw--between Job-Site and Hybrid. My apologies!!

@ Lee--that's what i was trying to say, and you did it 1/3 the space and much clearer. Thanks!!!

earl

[leehljp]

I agree. Not a saw for use in a professional shop, or for heavy production work. Standards for pro shops are saws like Unisaws and Powermatic. They are designed and built to operate on a daily basis for many maintenance free years. Equipped with a "T" square type fence and properly set up, provide the speed and accuracy needed for the most demanding work.

.

Cab,

You do realize that you are describing a saw for what YOU do, not what the OP asked. And a large price difference.

[cabinetman]

Cab,

You do realize that you are describing a saw for what YOU do, not what the OP asked. And a large price difference.

I didn't initially...

Just some things to think about. You are looking for a long term saw, and want high quality. If your budget is geared for a jobsite type saw, or one that needs to be mobile, down the road you may want to upgrade.

You might consider a contractors saw or a cabinet saw. You can wind up with more power, a more stable saw, and one with standards that are easy to work with. You can always add a mobile base, if it's needed.

It may seem I drifted off into the sunset about saws and heavy use. There was a reference about BT's being suitable for heavy production work, and being more accurate than production saws, which I disagree with entirely. We certainly don't want to give the OP the wrong impression.

.

[ctc2000]

Thanks for the info

Hello all,

Thanks for your input!

I would like to take a moment to respond to some of the questions you guys raised and see if you guys have any additional thoughts as well as ask some additional questions that I have thought of.

Several of you raised questions about how much space I was looking to take up. I have a very small shed that it really only big enough to store the tools in. It is already becoming quite full with my other tools and yard equip so unfortunately space is a factor. In order for me to use the saw I would have to be able to move it from my shed to a work space (usually under my carport). That said size and portability are important, however I don't want to make these factors so important that I totally compromise quality.

The folding ability of the Craftsman 21829 is very nice given my space restrictions; however, I could still fit the Rigid or Bosch in the shed if need be. I understand that they are heavier and more bulky however it seems that they are also built better.

It would be nice to have a full size contractor saw however I simply don't have the space. I guess my goal was to try to find a saw that offered the portability I need and that would be as close to contractor saw quality/ability as I could get without totally breaking the bank.

Are the saws I am looking at a reasonable bet to accomplish this? Or would I be better off scratching the idea of buying a saw that could last forever and going with a less expensive portable saw and using it for say 5 years and then upgrading to a bigger heavier duty saw when I have more space? While I would really prefer to buy one saw and be done (at least for a long time) would I be better off long term with 2 different saws?

Also, several of you guys mentioned getting the Craftsman 21829 for much less than what I have been seeing it for. I would like some feedback on how this is possible. If I decide to go with this saw then I would like to get it for the best possible price. I have been watching prices on this saw and others for at least 6 months and the current price of $512.99 is the lowest I have seen it during that time. It regularly runs $599.99 and it frequently goes on sale for $569 or $549 but the $512 price is the lowest I have seen so far. I would have no problem waiting if I could really get this saw for under $400. The only portable Craftsman saw that I am seeing in the under $400 price is the Craftsman 21828 which is a totallly different saw from what I can tell. I have seen the 21828 for as low as $249.99 and it usually retails for $339.99. Are you guys talking about the prices for the 21828 or are you actually talking about the Craftsman 21829? Can anyone give me a rough idea of when you have seen the 21829 for under $400 so I will know when to look out? Those of you who said you actually have the 21829 would you mind telling me what you paid?

(On a side note does any one know anything about the Craftsman 21828 saw and would it be a viable option for an inexpensive/ultra protable saw should I decide to go that route for now with the intent of purchasing a bigger saw later?)

Also speaking of prices, are the prices I listed for the Rigid and Bosch in line with what is to be expected or are there good specials on those I should look out for if I decide to go with one of those?

Well I think that pretty much covers everything you guys mentioned and obviosuly I have come up with more questions so please let me know your thoughts.

Again, I really appreciate all your feedback.

-Corey