I hope to soon join the BT3000 club

[ESwindell]

Hi, I was lurking for a bit as I gathered information regarding the BT3000 saw and if it would fit my needs. I came across this saw http://maine.craigslist.org/tls/2725490415.html and I downloaded the comments by Jim Frye and contacted LCHIEN to get his answers to FAQ. What are some other/if any things that I should be on the lookout for? I am fairly handy with repairing things but what in your opinion would be an absolute deal breaker.
A little about myself, I majored in carpentry in high school and worked in the field doing remodeling for several years before going back to school to get a forestry degree. I worked as an arborist until opening up my own locksmith business then due a work injury I am now disabled but still love to work with wood so I am coming full circle. I see some of the same names here as on the pen board that I belong to and from what I have read so far this looks to be a very similar group of caring people that are not shy about helping others out when asked.
Eric

[toolguy1000]

...... but what in your opinion would be an absolute deal breaker.......Eric

the fact that its a bt3xxx. three things about that saw do not appeal to me. 1) it is a right tilt. 2) it is not CI, with it's inherent stability. 3) there are quite a few threads here about "shims" in what sound like several places on the saw, and missing them can cause problems setting up the saw. it just seems to be a bit too finicky, particularly the SMT.

granted, $100 is a good price for a saw many people here seem to be terribly devoted to. i just thought i'd chiime in as the devil's advocate to provide another perspective. for > $200, i see many emerson electric built craftsman 10" CI contractor saws for sale on CL. having 2 of them, i may be a bit partial, and they do have that annoying motor hanging out the back, but they are extremely serviceable provided they haven't been abused and there is nothing they haven't been able to handle for me. whatever your decision, welcome to the forum and enjoy your return to woodworking.

[LCHIEN]

i just sent you the FAQ.
It has everyone's recommendations in it, including Jim Frye's comprehensive checklist.
However, i think he has you checking for things that don't normally go bad.

MY brief checklist for a BT3000 would be:
1. Does the motor run smoothly? The motor should sound with a high pitched whine, its no load speed is higher than most table saws. THis is probably the most expensive problem, will cost at least $50 for a used motor and close to 200 for a replacement motor. Its a custom motor. Dead motor to me is a no-go at any price unless you are buying for other parts.
2. 1/3 of BT3000 owners have had trouble with the shim system in the blade raising mechanism. I *think* whether or not you have problems is related to whether you keep the shim area lubed or are lucky. Buying a BT3000 I would check the shims for presence and move the blade mechanism up and down to make sure it works then lube it to keep it working. THis is the most likely problem to have. Its normal for a clicking noise when raising or lowering. But should move smoothly with little play.
3. Make sure all the accessories are there - Blade wrenches (2 come with it you need at least one of them to lock the arbor). Router/auxiliary table. Sliding miter table. Miter fence and black mount. Rip fence. Blade guard and riving knife (vertical plate that mounts behind the blade and holds the guard). Replacing any of these start around $15-20-$25 each on the used market, more from parts replacement houses and takes patience.
4. Check for broken parts - the ones that frequently get broken and are important are:
roller assy at the back of the rip fence - sometimes crack. The four latches that hold the SMT to the rails - often get broken when the SMT is dropped, handwheel/elevation wheel make sure its not broken, its getting hard to replace.
5. Plus value accessories - Outfeed table, router mounting kit, dado plate, rip fence micro adjuster, aftermarket mobility stand, aftermarket Shark blade guard system
6. Neutral value accessories - Dust bag, castor set,
7. if the switch is the two-button kind, its eligible for free replacement.
8. Look over carefully, if its clean and well kept it's more likely to be trouble free, the saw is not unreliable or flimsy but works best when treated well and worst when treated badly.

The FAQ has LOTS of info but this is what I'd check on a BT i was going to buy.

[durango dude]

Greetings!

I'm a newcomer to woodworking (a little under 2 years).

My BT was my first table saw.

Since acquiring it:
- rebuilt shims
- replaced lousy blade (someone swapped out the original for a cheap blade)
- replaced throat plate with zero clearance plate.
- repaired rip fence (slippage in the back).

That done, I'm reasonably happy with my saw. Mine was a yardsale find - it was darn hard to argue about at $100 for a saw, on a table with wheels - with an outfeed table, too.

I'll eventually replace my BT with something else - but I'm happy for now!

[Black wallnut]

the fact that its a bt3xxx. three things about that saw do not appeal to me. 1) it is a right tilt. 2) it is not CI, with it's inherent stability. 3) there are quite a few threads here about "shims" in what sound like several places on the saw, and missing them can cause problems setting up the saw. it just seems to be a bit too finicky, particularly the SMT.

granted, $100 is a good price for a saw many people here seem to be terribly devoted to. i just thought i'd chiime in as the devil's advocate to provide another perspective. for > $200, i see many emerson electric built craftsman 10" CI contractor saws for sale on CL. having 2 of them, i may be a bit partial, and they do have that annoying motor hanging out the back, but they are extremely serviceable provided they haven't been abused and there is nothing they haven't been able to handle for me. whatever your decision, welcome to the forum and enjoy your return to woodworking.

Really?
Are you in the right forum?
> means GREATER THAN
Most cast iron saws can not pass the nickle test; can your emerson's?
Your comment about shims has me thinking you actually have no experience with them or this saw so I see that as your posting with just biased opinions with no basis in fact. The shims is a non-issue in most saws. In saws where it has been an issue the fix is less than a couple of dollars if you have a drill and hack saw. Although there is a more expensive fix by upgrading to the next generation design. My SMT is anything but finicky; it has held its adjustments over years and many projects. FWIW my current project is 7 4'x8' sheets, 3 5'x5' sheets, and 101 bf of red oak.

You admit that it is not the saw for you and we can respect that but the is no need for conjecture.

Eric, welcome to BT3Central. Do all the research and no matter what saw you choose you are welcome here. Keep in mind that the saw you linked does not come with miter slots which may or may not matter to you.

[ESwindell]

I am not looking to start a battle in any way. The fact that this saw does not have the flared legs is a bonus to me as space in my "shop" (11-8x 11-3 with 2 doors and a window) is at a premium. I currently have a 14" BS, DC, barrel for cyclone, Lathe, DP, buffer, workbench, wood storage, wet grinder, dewalt thickness planer, many hand tools, ... LOML has said that I can move some of my things into the den (next room) so wood storage scroll saw and table with drill press and buffer will move in there freeing up floor space so I can get a table saw and the thickness sander (Christmas presents)in there. All tools are pushed to the walls and most will be moved to the middle of the floor, or to the door outside(milling longer pieces) for use and then put back

[leehljp]

I have enjoyed my BT3000 and my BT3100. Between the two, I like the 3000 better and part of that experience is the square stand.

For the record, I owned a '70's Unisaw once. Inherited it from my dad when he passed away in '96. He had problems keeping it in alignment. Constantly adjusting it and tightening it. It would stand the nickel test but still it required constant adjustments and alignments. I sold it after fooling with it for about 6 months, as I had the same problems with it as my dad did. With my BT3000, purchased in 2000 here in the States and shipped to Japan in 2001, I adjusted and aligned the Sliding Miter table twice in 9 years and it made a move from Osaka to Toyota City and stayed in alignment. I now have it back here in the States, and the SMT goes on square and stays square. I had some registration squares that I checked it with. There was no way that the Unisaw would do that.

Welcome and keep posting! Glad to have you here!

I thought I would add in a bit more - I have found the BT3x is a very good precision cutting machine. It is not so good as a framing and general construction contractor's saw. It will cut smooth a precise but it won't stand up to day in and day out feeding 2x4s or ripping. It will rip a 2x4 with no problems, but when time is money and fast feeding it becomes necessary hours on end, you will need a more powerful saw. I have built two small shops with it - a 9X12 that withstood a steady 100 mph Typhoon for 4 hours; and a 16 X 18 and it never balked in my building them. Besides them, I have made several pieces of furniture that required precision cuts and the saws did not bat an eye in doing the work. Great saws for the money!

[LCHIEN]

Eric, the key to number 2 in my list is a physical exam. I will try and find a picture and add to this post. You can look and verify that the shims are in fact, intact. You will need a #2 phillips screwdriver to remove the red throat plate.

The below picture shows a somewhat rusty and partially disassembled BT3000, showing the motor and arbor mounted to a bracket. The bracket slides up and down the vertical ways to elevate the blade. The caption show "shims go here" but there are no shims, which each would be visible as a piece of metal wrapped around two sides of the ways and serving as the sliding surface. The top and bottom would have the shims bent over the motor bracket by about 1/16th of an inch to retain them. The common failure is for the shims to stick to the ways and the retaining bends get flattened out and when the motor bracket is lowered or raised, they will fall off. Then the raising and lowering is stiff and not smooth. Fixing it takes the inexpensive shims and some work to disassemble the saw and reassemble it, not something i'd want to do on a saw i just got.



I'm looking for a picture with the shims intact.
Here's one at a slightly different angle. You can see the top of the shims, the ears are bent over the top of the motor bracket on both sides.



When you take off the throat plate you can see the motor bracket behind the blade and you will be looking down on it more than from the side as there pictures were taken. If it looks like this then your saw is OK. the pics above have the blade off the arbor but you should be able to see the shims behind the mounted blade, easily.

[toolguy1000]

Really?
Are you in the right forum?
> means GREATER THAN
Most cast iron saws can not pass the nickle test; can your emerson's?
Your comment about shims has me thinking you actually have no experience with them or this saw so I see that as your posting with just biased opinions with no basis in fact. The shims is a non-issue in most saws. In saws where it has been an issue the fix is less than a couple of dollars if you have a drill and hack saw. Although there is a more expensive fix by upgrading to the next generation design. My SMT is anything but finicky; it has held its adjustments over years and many projects. FWIW my current project is 7 4'x8' sheets, 3 5'x5' sheets, and 101 bf of red oak.

You admit that it is not the saw for you and we can respect that but the is no need for conjecture.

Eric, welcome to BT3Central. Do all the research and no matter what saw you choose you are welcome here. Keep in mind that the saw you linked does not come with miter slots which may or may not matter to you.

please pardon the >/< typo. i knew i should have taken typing in high schol instead of mechanical drawing.

as to nickel tests on my CI emersons, here is the latest addition to the herd:



and here is it's nickel test (note the bevelled blade):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvTS7pfhfsU&context=C33004a9ADOEgsToPDskLTBC3THV1tclKnwXe4IlLW

i tried to not render opinions about the bt3, as i've never owned one. i believe i did make three statements that are factual ( it is a right tilt, it is not CI and there have been threads on this forum about bt3xxx owners experiencing trouble with shims and the saw's SMT). and i never said the saw is not for me. i only said it had three features that did not appeal to me ( just like the RT feature of older unisaws is a deal breaker for me when considering possible replacements for my current TSs).

should the OP wish to acquire a bt3, i wish him the best of luck with it and his woodworking. there's room for all types of saws in my world. the OP did, however, ask for things that would possibly influence his contemplated bt3xxx aquisition. my reply was merely an attempt to broaden his horizon regarding other saws available on CL in roughly the same price range.

[LCHIEN]

thanks for your input, toolguy. The pros and cons of the saw are discussed in the FAQ document which I hope Eric has rad some of by now. I have taken all the comments I heard all the years and the BT owners' rebuttals. Naturally the site being about the saw attracts enthusiasts so their love for certain features is somewhat evident. Eric said he thought the BT3Centrals members personalities fit with has so he thinks he would like the saw.
It's not perfect but it has certain qualities to it.

PS Not CI maybe a legit complaint - but aluminum is maint free and holds the cost and weight down - trade-offs,
Right tilt is a personal preference.
My SMT has worked great, I prefer it over a conventional Miter thingy.
Shims I addressed - keep lubed
and stability has not been a problem I've heard much if any. Would depend if you're cutting large timbers on your saw, I suppose. Center of gravity not much worse than other saws except it weighs a lot less.

[ESwindell]

sigh.... he sold it to someone else, so now the hunt begins again. If anyone hears of one in the NH area could you let me know? Thanks

[Cochese]

I know a lot of people like the SMT, but I'd rather have the miter slots. I'll be correcting that soon, and who knows how much I'll use it after I do.

Other than that, I can't say I have too many complaints about the saw by itself. Running, no load, it's actually pretty quiet. Haven't used a cabinet saw for comparison, but I'm happy with how loud it is. Not a fan of the faces of the fence, because it makes it more difficult to attach a sacrificial fence with what I have. May investigate adding a permanent HDPE face on both sides.

You need to do a few upgrades to make it really good, luckily that's where Lee comes in with the ZCTPs and the guards. It would be nice if the surface was CI for magnetic featherboards, etc, but it doesn't diminish the use of the saw.


BTW, I have the 21829.


EDIT - I also just joined 'the club' the other day. Where are dues sent again?

[dbhost]

As far as the SMT is concerned, it is one of those things you either love, or hate. I have both the SMT and miter slot tables on either side of the blade. I have the miter slots aligned to within .001" and still prefer the SMT for most cuts.

On the Sacrificial faces thing, it's doable very easily. The faces I use are mostly straight scrap pine that I simply clamp to the ends, but if you are using a work piece that is upright / tall like for cutting tenons, then you need a different approach.

Rockler sells universal fence clamps for just such a purpose...

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17821&filter=fence%20clamp

Lee's Shark Guard is hugely recommended. I have the 4" port model, and am happy with it. Great dust collection, and visibility while keeping my digits away from the blade!

ZCTPs (Zero Clearance Throat Plates) as well as Dado throat plates are highly recommended for these saws, thankfully they are very easy to make.

I am very happy with my BT, but I must admit, if surplus budget presented itself where I could afford a 3HP SawStop PCS, yeah, I'd sell my BT...

[Cochese]

As far as the SMT is concerned, it is one of those things you either love, or hate. I have both the SMT and miter slot tables on either side of the blade. I have the miter slots aligned to within .001" and still prefer the SMT for most cuts.

On the Sacrificial faces thing, it's doable very easily. The faces I use are mostly straight scrap pine that I simply clamp to the ends, but if you are using a work piece that is upright / tall like for cutting tenons, then you need a different approach.

Rockler sells universal fence clamps for just such a purpose...

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17821&filter=fence%20clamp

Lee's Shark Guard is hugely recommended. I have the 4" port model, and am happy with it. Great dust collection, and visibility while keeping my digits away from the blade!

ZCTPs (Zero Clearance Throat Plates) as well as Dado throat plates are highly recommended for these saws, thankfully they are very easy to make.

I am very happy with my BT, but I must admit, if surplus budget presented itself where I could afford a 3HP SawStop PCS, yeah, I'd sell my BT...

These are what I have, but I need another piece on the opposite side to get a good clamping surface. I wish the slot wasn't there, I want flat faces. Haven't seen a use for the slots in the actual face yet, perhaps someone can point one out. More of a minor annoyance than anything, another piece of wood I have to keep track of.

[oohhmm]

I have 2 BT3000's. The first I bought new in 93. It's produced a lot of work for me with no trouble at all , not even shim problems. I work mostly with Cherry and very dense exotics.

At times I wish I had more power, but I've found a quality thin kerf blade ( I have a Freud and a Tenryu ) will get me thru 8/4 cherry with minimal slow down.

At times I wish I had CI, just for all the little magnetic goodies out there. But stability has never been an issue and there are plenty of alternate goodies for things like setup and alignment.

At times I used to get a bit frustrated with my SMT, but since I added the miter slot accessory I can use a traditional miter and jigs if the SMT isn't the right tool for the job.

One day I decided to buy a contractor's saw for a remodel and addition I was doing at the back of my property (a separate structure about 100 yards from my workshop) as the amount of lugging lumber back and forth combined seemed ridiculous and my BT is NOT portable the way it's set up.

I decided on a cheapie Ryobi from HD - $159. I took a look at CL to save some $ and when I typed in Ryobi, my 2nd BT was there. New in the box for $150, it was a no brainer. This saw will continue to be my "contractor saw" and it does just fine for my needs in this capacity, and I'm sure will last me the rest of my life.

Tomorrow, if things go well and it checks out, I'll pick up my 3rd BT300, again from CL for $150. Why? I have the room to store it and someday I may need it for spare parts, or possibly a complete replacement for my workshop saw. I really love the saw and can't envision ever replacing it with some other make....

Oh, I almost forgot, as for the right tilt, I've never heard a BT3 user complain (nor have I) about this. I think it might be that our minds are able to comprehend things from all different perspectives thereby having fewer limitations.... Come to think of it, maybe that's why we chose this saw in the first place?