Selling used woodworking plans?

[tfischer]

This is something I've always wondered about, and haven't seen discussed anywhere. Lets say I buy a set of plans, and build the project. Now I'm done with these plans... I have no intent to ever build another one. Is it legal and ethical to put them up on eBay for someone else to buy and use?

On the surface it seems no different than buying a college textbook, using it for one class, and then selling it. But on the other hand, it seems like maybe I"m buying the rights to build the project, and not the paper plans?

Maybe as a software developer formerly in the music industry I'm just a little too hung up on IP?

-Tim

[LCHIEN]

Yeah, I don't think woodworking plans are an exclusive license to build them.
Many of them are collections put together or a publications of some author's work.
Unless it specifically states the plans are an non-transferable license of some kind I wouldn't worry about reselling them.

[Turaj]

Tim,

Couple of years back, I put the same question to the editor of a woodworking magazine (here in Canada). His answer was:

- You can sell the used magazine or plan like any other used item as long as it is the original and you did not make a copy of it
- You can build as many project from the plan as you want, as long as they are not being sold

In certain cases, with permission, you can scan and share a plan with friends, as long as you are not being paid for it (such was the case with Rod Kirby and plans for Assembley Table from Shopnotes).

Turaj

[tfischer]

Tim,

- You can build as many project from the plan as you want, as long as they are not being sold

Wait, you're not supposed to sell projects built from plans? I've never run into that need, but I guess I don't see why they'd care if I built the project for me, or for someone else who paid me to build it.

[cwsmith]

I've always had some sort of problem with "copyright".... and I don't know how "plans" actually fall into the provisions of copyright law. As a guy who's done a number of illustrations and a few cartoons, I'm pretty sensitive about my own works being used, beyond what I have done for a particular client. But, it was soon realized earlier in my career that once I provide the particular work to a client, they pretty much get to do what they want with it.

For your concern, I guess I would look at it from the perspective that if you paid the person to exclusively draw the plans for your personal needs, it would be up to them to specify the provisions in which their work was going to be utilized. For example, you solicit a person to draw up plans from a photograph you have of an old piece once belonging to your Grandmother. Who owns that, you or the draftsman that did the work? Fact is, you own it... you contracted with him to draw it for you.

But, if the guy did the drawing on his own and then offered it for sale. He must then specify the terms of the sale.... "one time use only"; "not for trade or sale"; or "not for production or commercial use"

Many copyright provisions get stated simply as "use like a book". In other words, you can buy a book for your own reading pleasure, and you can give, trade, or even sell that book to someone else. But you are NOT allowed to copy that book or any part of it to sell or share and still retain your purchase.... that is clearly a violation of copyright.

So, bottom line is what if anything does the copyright say... or is it copyrighted at all? Understand, that a "copyright" does not have to be registered or even filed with the Government. You simply have to mark the document or drawing with your name and date. For example, "Copyright 1999, C.W. Smith. All Rights Reserved." That pretty much states that it's mine. But further protection requires further steps, like having it recorded, stamped or notarized etc. The actual government filing gets done only if you expect that your masterpiece is of such value that someone will steal it and you see yourself going to court in some future attempt to sue for its violation and monetary loss to yourself.

So, if you bought the plan and now wish to give it or even sell it to get some of your investment back, I think you would be okay... providing the original author hasn't stated otherwise. And remember, many of these plans have already been taken from someone else and the person who has collected them is simply selling because he wants to profit from his collection from others. That's not always the case, of course.

I hope this helps,

CWS

[LCHIEN]

agree with CWS

[LinuxRandal]

Traditional plans you would have the right to sell. If they want to do something else with restrictions, then it will be listed as some magazines have done. Then as IP goes, when you change something, it throws a wrench in the works, which means if you want to enforce it, your going to have lawyer bills that you may get a worthless judgement for. It is unlikely your going to produce enough of some project that you would actually gather legal attention.
This made me go look up a tool that I once looked at, that was licensed rather then sold. The Stots woodworking jig took a software licensing view to tool use. If you bought the template, even a family member, couldn't use it. It appears that he has passed on and Milescraft bought it either before or from the heirs and the limitations are no more.

[tfischer]

This made me go look up a tool that I once looked at, that was licensed rather then sold. The Stots woodworking jig took a software licensing view to tool use. If you bought the template, even a family member, couldn't use it. It appears that he has passed on and Milescraft bought it either before or from the heirs and the limitations are no more.

I think I remember that. Wasn't the issue that the jig could easily be used to copy itself? They didn't want people to sell those copies, or to copy it and sell the original.

I built a shed 15 years ago and still have the plans (which I modified pretty heavily anyway), as well as a handful of plans for woodworking (including the dressers I built last summer). I should probably throw them on eBay and see what happens.

[Pappy]

Interesting discussion. I have a number of bought plans including the NYWS Router Station. I made copies of that one for a couple of members here for the cost of just the copies and mailing, no profit. The plans do not have a copyright marked on them. I haven't had a reason to look for a copyright on any of the other plans I have.

A past response to the production question from Wood magazine stated a limit of 25 items could be made for sale from plans in the magazine.

[cwsmith]

If there is no copyright indication then you are probably okay, but that doesn't mean that some 'gatherer' who goes about collecting these drawings hasn't possibly removed the copyright that the original designer might have placed on them. In such a case though, it is the person or the company that you bought the plans from that would be in liability, not you.

Plans that you find in magazines (as part of articles) would hold the copyright of that issue. However, the magazine would be in wide distribution and it is most always the intention of the publisher that you can use those freely. Where that copyright would come into issue would be if you republished those plans, as if they to make claim that they were yours. The original publisher would have a fit about that, rightly so. But share them with friends, etc. would normally be okay, if you let the person know that these were from that magazine... something we all do, "Found this in last year's "Whatever" issue.

Regarding copyright and making possible changes, one has to be careful. Doing it for yourself is okay, but changes or any type of copy rendition does not alleviate or bypass the copyright of the original. For example, about a decade ago, I was approached by a local defense contractor to do some illustrations for their product brochures. They make some type of motorized mechanism used in tracking/targeting. They had collected a number of photographs of various weapon systems that their components were used in; and, they wanted me to copy/illustrate those photos (take the photos and digitally trace them into vector illustrations so that they could be enlarged or used at any scale with minimal loss) so they could then us them as they deemed necessary. Problem with that was that they didn't have "releases" from those particular manufactures or defense departments to use those photos.

Without those legal "okays" there was simply no way I was going to be able to do that. The potential-client's argument was that I'm changing the photos by tracing them and perhaps even rendering some change to them in the process. But the fact was that I would have been in violation of copyright, either from the original company who paid for the photo work or by the photographers who took those pictures. Even though my client said that they'd take responsibility for that, I couldn't go there without written legal consent from the originator.

It would have been a nice job, paying over a grand for each illustration and there were several dozen photos. Very time consuming, it would have kept me busy a few months and I definitely would have liked the money,.. BUT, I just couldn't go there. They weren't too happy with me.

A couple years later, you may recall, there was this rather popular graphic image of President Obama... the two- or three-colored poster of his image. That artist was later sued by the photographer who took the original picture that the artist copied and made his graphic from. Good illustration, but without the consent of the originator, THAT kind of thing just isn't acceptable.

But, for the matter here, you've bought the plan drawings. They are not photographs (which are hard to mark with copyright), but are drawings that are easily marked and on which copyright and use limitations can be easily labeled. If no restraints are published with those drawings, then copying or re-selling should never be an issue.

CWS